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[Xmca-l] Re: The Ideal



Andy, thanks for your clarification of the existing of the ideal AS exchanged [ex -expression / change -transformation] WITHIN a particular tradition. The Marxist and Hegelian tradition . THIS tradition was also present in the vygotskian tradition.


I want to respond [as part of THIS expression/transformation exchange] with my ex-tensions [expressive tensions]. IN Peirce's tradition I would say my interpretants.


I am playing with being [is] AND resemblance [as]


The ideal AS presence EXISTING. WHERE IS the ideal EXISTING as presence? IN the Marxist-Hegelian TRADITION. In this TYPE of ex-change [interpretants AS existing]


It would be TRUE to SAY [exchange] THE [indexical] *ideal of democracy* EXISTS within US political LIFE [as living presence] WHERE does THIS ideal exist?

IN all the RHETORIC.

IN all the LEGISLATION.


THIS ideal IS  present IN the surroundings. [Gadamer would say IN the horizons]


THAT [indexical] ideal EXISTS *AS* an immanent TENDENCY [movement direction *sens* ]

WHERE? IN the *foundations* of THE republic [AS ANOTHER ideal or interpreting]


This ideal is NOT a *fiction*.  

 I intuitively want to explore this opposition and explore ex-tensions of the meaning [and presence/absence] of *fiction* in relation to THE *true*] - through OTHER traditions.


SO

something [existing] LIKE a MODEL [something RESEMBLING a model but NOT identical to *A* model] IS the most powerful EXISTING [and the most obvious EXISTING] 8*manifestation* [coming into being] of THE [indexical] *ideal* [AS truth not fiction]


THE  model is NOT identical [equal] to THE [indexical] ideal AS existing. [as an EXISTING interpretant .  

THE model is NOT the beginning and end of THE ideal. THE model EXISTS in *relation* TO the ideal as interpretant.[BOTH the model AND the ideal EXIST.


IN the ABSENCE of a model [which is derived or abstracted from the ideal] the ideal STILL EXISTS. [is true] The ideal IS present in its presence.

BUT WHERE is THIS [indexical] ideal existent as an interpreting.

ANSWER: IN  [or within] any LIVING community. THE community [as cases] ex-press 


[exchange AS expression transformation] 


LIVING formations THROUGH ideals [interpretants that EXIST] ARE the WAY living exchanges are manifest AS *extensions* [exchanging tensions]  THIS exchanging presence through dialectic AND dialogue [not either/or but BOTH/and possibly other ex-tensions]


My impressions as I was *reading* ANDY’S ex-change deepening the exploration of Leontiev's re-visioning Vygotsky's exploration of *experience* as a possible unity of subject and object WITHIN THIS particular tradition


Larry








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From: Andy Blunden
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎October‎ ‎14‎, ‎2014 ‎4‎:‎56‎ ‎PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity





Although I am sure that 99.9% (or thereabouts) of people who read what 
Vygotsky said about the presence of the ideal in the child's 
environment, interpreted this to mean simply that adult speech provided 
a model on which children could model their own language-use, 
nonetheless, this is not ultimately what the presence of the ideal means 
in the Marxist/Hegelian tradition of which Vygotsky and many of his 
colleagues were a part.
It would be true to say for example that the ideal of democracy exists 
with US political life, even though I doubt there is a single electoral 
process which is not corrupted by money and degraded by ignorance, 
prejudice and narrow self-interest. Nonetheless, in all the rhetoric and 
legislation around the broader political life, and what peoplpe tell 
their kids and what young people cry out for in their political 
interventions, that ideal exists, it exists as an immanent tendency 
present in the very foundation of the Republic. Cynicism aside this is 
not a fiction.
So while something like a model is the most obvious and powerful 
manifestation of the Ideal, it is not the beginning and end of the 
Ideal. In the absence of such a model, the Ideal is still present in any 
living community.
The NSL case is a case where we can learn more deeply what an Ideal can be.

Andy
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/