I am also confused. Sign language is a dinkum language. It has all
the features of a human language, and can, because it is based in time
and space, express even more in the verb than spoken language does.
If a child has no access to the local sign language, then their
gestural expression will still have symbolic meaning for their caretaker.
Of course I may have missed the point.
On 14 October 2014 05:18, Greg Thompson <email@example.com
It hardly seems that Vygotsky could have meant what Mike is taking
mean or else we would have the logical impossibility (if we accept
evolution as I assume V did) that the ideal form has always
"there" all the way back to the first instance of human existence.
beginning was the word (and it contained all later ideal forms)"? That
seems improbable that someone concerned with "development" like
would have thought that way. For Vygotsky does development only
ontogeny but never in phylogeny?
Andy, I'm wondering why you would call this a "once-in-human-history
event"? Seems like this event captures perhaps the WHOLE of human
no? From iconicity and indexicality to the symbolic function? But the
symbolic function only develops as a coordinated project between
large numbers of people who develop conventional but arbitrary
between signs and things.
I assume I'm missing something glaring here.
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 6:46 PM, Andy Blunden <firstname.lastname@example.org
> Mike has drawn our attention to the Nicaraguan Sign Language
> as a counter-example to Vygostsky's claim:
> "that if no appropriate ideal form can be found in the
> and the development of the child, for whatever reasons, has
> place outside these specific conditions (described earlier), i.e.
> without any interaction with the final form, then this proper
> will fail to develop properly in the child."
> In my opinion, this once-in-human-history event does not
> principle Vygotsky was elaborating. Just like every attempt to
> distinguishes the human being from the animal seems to be
faulted by the
> latest clip from YouTube, all such absolute claims are almost
bound to fail
> at some point. But the principle, illustrated by the fact that
> growing up in Russia speak Russian and understand the meaning of
> perezhivanie whereas we don't, etc., is hardly faulted by NSL.
> The other thing that Mike suggests is that the principle of the
> being present in the environment carries with it the negation of
> of the social formation itself being subject to continuous
change. Again, I
> think Vygotsky just takes this as outside the concerns of
> essay on Socialist Man http://www.marxists.org/
> archive/vygotsky/works/1930/socialism.htm shows that in fact he
> psychology of people as primarily determined by the social
> which they were a part and he saw that social formation as
evolving. He was
> of course a modern, albeit I suspect a modern with a
> for irony.
> Now, this raises the difficult question of what Vygotsky may
have meant by
> "ideal." Or, what he thought is a mystery, but what should *we*
> by ideality? It is well known that Vygotsky was surrounded by a
> fellows who were aficionados of Hegelianism, even if Vygotsky
> never studied Hegel, so it is fair to suggest that the Hegelian
> the Ideal is relevant in this context, of reconciling "ideal" as
> in a given social formation and "ideal" as the notion of infinite,
> historical perfectability. For Hegel, "ideality" expresses both
> principles; that is, that any relation contains within it a
> makes it open to perfectability, and that "gap" is ever present,
> existence expresses what Hegel calls The Idea, that is to say, the
> ever-unfolding spirit of human freedom. Etc. It only requires
that the Idea
> is present for any relation to be mutable. This is deep and
> philosophical stuff which we don't really need, if we can just
> "the ideal" does not mean something fixed and final, just an
> ever-shifting goal posts.
> *Andy Blunden*
Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
Department of Anthropology
882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin)
Academic, Researcher, and Editor
Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa