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[Xmca-l] Re: Foucault



Dear Helena and Henry,
You have so clearly described why I asked Henry about
writing his experiences from the 60's down.  There is
a middle ground,  a third space or what Maxine Greene
called the dialectic of freedom. If there is not such a
book as you describe, then one should be written.
*Robert Lake*
And concerning hope, listen to Cornel West.

*Those who have never despaired have neither lived nor loved. Hope is *
*inseparable from despair. Those of us who truly hope make despair a
constant *
*companion whom we outwrestle every day owing to our commitment to *
*justice, love, and hope" *(West, 2008, p. 185).
 *Hope on a tightrope: Words & wisdom*. Carlesbad, CA. Smiley Books


On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 11:54 AM, Helena Worthen <helenaworthen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Henry and Robert:
>
> There is a middle ground where I don't see a lot getting written,
> published or discussed.
>
> I don't mean nothing -- I mean a lot. There are people on this list like
> Robert Lake who seem to be in a place to do exactly what I'm referring to.
> Your book,
> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/imagination-and-praxis/we-saved-the-best-for-you/
> would be an indication of this.
>
> The middle ground I'm talking about is something between the hostile
> rejections of 60's left movement groups written by complete outsiders on
> the one hand, and self-criticizing rejections of experience in those groups
> by people who were deep inside and who are now, age 70 (my age, too!)
> asking "What could we have POSSIBLY been thinking?"
>
> I would like to see something in between. Those movements, for all their
> internal drama, mistakes, etc and frequent bad behavior, made a big
> difference. They DID change the world, in fact.
>
> I would like to see a careful interpretive version of those intertwined
> stories that explains where these New Left movements came from and what
> elements of them survive today. One that treats them respectfully,
> acknowledging the bad stuff but not scorning or slandering the good stuff.
>
> Henry, maybe you know of such a book.
>
> Helena Worthen
> helenaworthen@gmail.com
>
> On Sep 18, 2014, at 8:25 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III wrote:
>
> > I should add, I'm just a sensitive guy. I can imagine some people
> saying, "Just get over it!!" or "Get a little resilience!" or "Fight back!"
> Drawing attention to my little nicks would embarrass me. We were brats who
> thought we would change the world. We were posturing. I don't mean the 60s
> youth movement was all bad, but some of it lacked grounding. I do suspect
> that my sense of injustice in the world is at least in part a projection of
> these "unresolved issues", maybe not a bad thing. But when all is said and
> done, I don't think I could remember enough detail to tell a good story,
> even if it were a good story. If I could remember it, it would be bathos. I
> could easily imagine, however, that others would have a different story,
> one worth telling.
> >
> >
> > On Sep 18, 2014, at 6:47 PM, Robert Lake <boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> >> There you go Henry. You have touched on a vital topic
> >> that needs more attention. Your 60's experience provides
> >> a great back story for your passion against bullying.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III <
> hshonerd@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Robert,
> >>> I have not and, off the top of my head, think it wouldn't be of great
> >>> interest to anyone else. Like I say, it's embarrassing to be on either
> end
> >>> of that kind of bullying. None of what happened to me was unforgivable,
> >>> though it has always made me very sensitive to bullying in ANY context,
> >>> especially between peers. It happens all the time in classrooms, in
> >>> schools. The small cuts, nicely fashioned to keep one in line.
> "Classroom
> >>> management" keeps a lid on it. Kids aren't naturally mean, it's
> learned. It
> >>> should be at the center of a dialog in schools that pretend to be
> >>> inclusive. I think of "multicultural" courses for student teachers
> focused
> >>> on gender, class, race, religion, are ABOUT bullying but not praxis, at
> >>> least from my own experience trying to teach it to student teachers. I
> was
> >>> part of the problem, though I think I taught the courses in good
> faith. I'm
> >>> pretty sure that's at the root of the dialog we are having here: How to
> >>> have it in schools. Well, really throughout society. What's good for
> kids
> >>> is good for adults. ZPD rules!
> >>> Henry
> >>>
> >>> On Sep 18, 2014, at 1:00 PM, Robert Lake <boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi Henry,
> >>>> Have you written of your '60's experiences anywhere?
> >>>> If not you might consider it.
> >>>> RL
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 2:37 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III <
> >>> hshonerd@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Mike,,
> >>>>> A little historical ontology of myself. I was in Berkeley and Cuba
> with
> >>>>> the Weathermen in the 60s when we were thinking in terms of a
> critique
> >>> of
> >>>>> not just A culture, but CULTURE: Che, revolution. Middle class white
> >>> kids
> >>>>> mostly, we even thought we might be willing to die to make a better
> >>> world,
> >>>>> like Che. Mostly we hurt each other's feelings trying to decide whose
> >>>>> consciousness was highest. It's embarrassing to talk about it. Now
> I'm a
> >>>>> retired education prof working as a sub in two great charter schools
> in
> >>>>> Albuquerque, breaking good. Reading the XMA/XMCA dialog, I find much
> >>> better
> >>>>> grounding than consciousness raising sessions of the 60s, and I find
> >>>>> Bloch's optimism (See Andy's website) warranted. Like the song goes:
> I'm
> >>>>> still willin'. I have been scrambling to catch up on the thinking of
> >>>>> "academic" giants as I read your posts, convinced you wouldn't post
> >>> them if
> >>>>> you didn't think they were important for this dialog. In other words
> I
> >>>>> trust this dialog as it looks back. I understand Mike's problem with
> >>>>> posting the Amy and Jed talk, though I think it is helpful that we
> have
> >>>>> taken on the messiness of the moment. It's looking forward, the
> Novum,
> >>>>> where I find my optimism. I don't think it's crazy to think that CHAT
> >>> can
> >>>>> be "popularized",  can be part of changing popular narratives. I love
> >>>>> Vygotsky because he worked so feverishly, with others, to make that
> >>> happen,
> >>>>> for children. It seems to me that the reason Amy and Jed are
> important
> >>> for
> >>>>> this dialog is because schools ARE the key to changing the narrative.
> >>> Or so
> >>>>> I think and feel. And getting real dialog into the schools, not test
> >>> prep,
> >>>>> is what will change everything. That's the concept I think is worth
> >>> aiming
> >>>>> for. Again, so I think and feel.
> >>>>> Henry
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sep 18, 2014, at 11:15 AM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks for the recap, Martin. Then we got to Phillip who talked
> about
> >>>>>> theorizing and autobiography as part of the Foucault thread. Is the
> >>> move
> >>>>>> from ourselveS to ourselF important?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> With the critique of culture issue, it seems that the sense of A
> >>> culture
> >>>>> as
> >>>>>> AN historically formation of human lifeways and Culture, as the
> medium
> >>> of
> >>>>>> all forms of human life, are getting conflated in the discussion.
> The
> >>>>>> project of criticizing various values and practices that are part of
> >>> the
> >>>>>> cultural conditions of our own society (conditions plural) seems
> >>> doable,
> >>>>> if
> >>>>>> necessarily contest. A critique of human Culture as a medium of
> human
> >>>>> life
> >>>>>> seems considerably more problematic.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> mike
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 9:58 AM, Martin John Packer <
> >>>>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I was simply responding to Paul M.'s (rhetorical?) question as to
> >>>>> whether
> >>>>>>> there might be a state of nature to which we could return that
> would
> >>> be
> >>>>>>> outside culture. I said that this is not possible for homo sapiens
> -
> >>> we
> >>>>>>> need culture to survive. Michael G. then suggested that if we can't
> >>> step
> >>>>>>> outside culture we cannot critique it. I replied again in the
> >>> negative,
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>>> made a passing reference to Foucault who engaged in research that
> was
> >>>>>>> critical of culture from inside: one of his ideas was to work with
> >>>>>>> marginalized groups to explore ways of living that the mainstream
> has
> >>>>>>> ignored. Larry then suggested that Foucault was following
> >>>>> Merleau-Ponty's
> >>>>>>> lead, and Phillip responded that Foucault was more influenced by
> >>>>> Hyppolite.
> >>>>>>> I countered by suggesting that Foucault's research program -
> exploring
> >>>>> what
> >>>>>>> he called "the historical ontology of ourselves" - in other words,
> how
> >>>>> we
> >>>>>>> are constituted historically (and culturally) as specific kinds of
> >>>>> person -
> >>>>>>> was at least consistent with the interests of Merleau-Ponty and
> >>> Sartre.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Phew! What a tangled web we weave.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Martin
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Sep 18, 2014, at 11:35 AM, Greg Thompson <
> >>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I thought it was Martin who had mentioned Foucault's "historical
> >>>>> ontology
> >>>>>>>> of ourselves"?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'd love to hear more too (note this is where Martin's book The
> >>> Science
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>> Qualitative Research leaves off. I'd love to hear the argument
> >>>>> enlivened
> >>>>>>>> once again).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Martin?
> >>>>>>>> -greg
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 9:25 AM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> My apologies if my "chaining" off your comment about cocktail
> >>> parties
> >>>>>>>>> distracted from the main point of the ongoing discussion,
> Phillip.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Could you say more about what an historical ontology of oneself
> >>>>> means? I
> >>>>>>>>> can understand the truth of the idea that In any interaction with
> >>>>>>> others,
> >>>>>>>>> whether at a cocktail party or in an academic discussion group,
> one
> >>> is
> >>>>>>>>> creating one's own history and that an autobiography is a self
> >>> history
> >>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>> ego's point of view. If one theorizes, then theorizing is a mode
> of
> >>>>>>>>> activity/experience that becomes the material of autobiography.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I am still back on David's earlier claim that cultural historical
> >>>>>>>>> approaches to understanding human development do not view data as
> >>> ways
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> testing/evaluating/improving theory. I may have gotten confused
> by
> >>>>>>> thinking
> >>>>>>>>> that the discussion on Foucault, Merleau-P, et. Were part of that
> >>>>>>>>> discussion. A lot swirling around at once.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> A pathway out of the thicket would be gratefully received.
> >>>>>>>>> Mike
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, September 16, 2014, White, Phillip <
> >>>>>>> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> as you write, Martin, yes, they had similar descriptions of
> their
> >>>>> work
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> "Foucault came to describe his work overall as a "historical
> >>> ontology
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>> ourselves." Certainly both Sartre and Merleau-Ponty were
> >>> philosophers
> >>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>>>>> ontology, and of history."
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> the difference is, i believe, that Foucault identified with
> those
> >>>>>>> peoples
> >>>>>>>>>> who have been marginalized: prisoners, those deemed mentally
> ill,
> >>> and
> >>>>>>>>>> homosexuals.  he said that his writings were autobiography.  and
> >>> i've
> >>>>>>>>> come
> >>>>>>>>>> to understand my own work as a way of autobiography.  i've
> begun to
> >>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>> of theory as a way of autobiography.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> i believe that i recognize a great deal of autobiography
> performed
> >>>>> here
> >>>>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>>>>> xmca - just as one sees autobiography performed at a cocktail
> >>> party.
> >>>>>>>>>> (that's a great metaphor!)
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> p
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Development and Evolution are both ... "processes of construction
> >>> and
> >>>>>>> re-
> >>>>>>>>> construction in which heterogeneous resources are contingently
> but
> >>>>> more
> >>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>>>> less reliably reassembled for each life cycle." [Oyama,
> Griffiths,
> >>> and
> >>>>>>>>> Gray, 2001]
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> >>>>>>>> Assistant Professor
> >>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology
> >>>>>>>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> >>>>>>>> Brigham Young University
> >>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602
> >>>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Development and Evolution are both ... "processes of construction
> and
> >>> re-
> >>>>>> construction in which heterogeneous resources are contingently but
> more
> >>>>> or
> >>>>>> less reliably reassembled for each life cycle." [Oyama, Griffiths,
> and
> >>>>>> Gray, 2001]
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>> *Robert Lake  Ed.D.*Associate Professor
> >>>> Social Foundations of Education
> >>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
> >>>> Georgia Southern University
> >>>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group
> >>>> P. O. Box 8144
> >>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355
> >>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382
> >>>> Statesboro, GA  30460
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> *Robert Lake  Ed.D.*Associate Professor
> >> Social Foundations of Education
> >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
> >> Georgia Southern University
> >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group
> >> P. O. Box 8144
> >> Phone: (912) 478-0355
> >> Fax: (912) 478-5382
> >> Statesboro, GA  30460
> >
> >
>
>
>


-- 

*Robert Lake  Ed.D.*Associate Professor
Social Foundations of Education
Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
Georgia Southern University
Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group
P. O. Box 8144
Phone: (912) 478-0355
Fax: (912) 478-5382
Statesboro, GA  30460