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[Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation?



Andy,

thank you for your comments.

My whole paragraph is: "I agree that my development is not the development
– for example - of my Institute of Research. But this is because I am
participating in (and to) many other activities. Not because me and my
Institute are two separated entities."

That is, me and my Institute have a development which can overlap.

When I talk in my email about the cultural tools developed in our
collaborative work in my Institute, I am not referring to the issue of
'making up words'. I meant to refer that the development overlaps because
my colleagues and me we have internalized the same cultural tools (however
in a subjective way).

All cows are not black for me, because I look at the personal relationship
that each older worker (going back to my research) has with the
motive/object of the activity. To be precise, I look at the personal sense
of the motive.

Cristina


2014-08-06 16:36 GMT+02:00 Ed Wall <ewall@umich.edu>:

> Robert
>
>        I'm glad you brought this up. I've read what Andy had written (I
> just checked and there seems to be more or perhaps a different format or
> perhaps I've just forgotten) and have also studied Hegel's Science of Logic
> in a bit of depth. I've also read the first in Jackson's series and was
> uncertain whether this was an help or improvement (Dewey seems to have
> lectured on this piece by Hegel by the way); however, I admit to possible
> bias because of these other readings. Thus I've always wondered how helpful
> other people found the series and why.
>
> Ed Wall
>
> On Aug 6, 2014, at 9:17 AM, Robert Lake <boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Peter,
> > Speaking of Philip Jackson, I called him
> > a couple of months ago to make sure I was
> > clear on his particular reading of Dewey's work. In passing,
> > I mentioned how pleased I was to see his work on Hegel
> > in* Teacher's College Record.*(Speaking of Thinking:
> > A Beginner's Guide to Hegel's *Science of Logic*, Parts I-5).
> > He said that series of articles represented ten years of
> > research and that I was the only person that
> > ever mentioned anything about this work
> > to him. That is sad.
> > Robert
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:34 AM, Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> I read After Virtue in grad school, assigned by Philip Jackson (and it
> was
> >> Lortie, not Jackson, who made the apprenticeship of observation a common
> >> term among teacher educators--someone posted earlier on this question.
> In
> >> case anyone's interested, I've got a forthcoming study of
> apprenticeship of
> >> observation that complicates Lortie's conclusions based on interviews
> from
> >> a different era, and would be happy to send the pdf to anyone who's
> >> interested).
> >>
> >> Anyhow, on MacIntyre: I remember discussing at the time that the book
> >> seemed like a rough draft that really would have benefitted from a
> thorough
> >> revision to cut out the meandering and make a more pointed argument.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 8:55 PM
> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation?
> >>
> >> Relevant references to MacIntyre's "After Virtue" are on pp. 7-8 of
> >> "Collaborative Projects. An Interdisciplinary Study," which I know you
> have
> >> a copy of, Greg. He uses the expressions "internal reward" and "external
> >> reward."
> >> Andy
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> *Andy Blunden*
> >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> >>
> >>
> >> Greg Thompson wrote:
> >>> And one more thing Andy (I realize given the hour down-under, you are
> >>> probably slumbering - hopefully not dogmatically...), could you sell
> >>> us on why we should look at MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic
> >>> motivation.
> >>> Your suggestion that Cristina read MacIntyre on extrinsic and
> >>> intrinsic motivation was less than convincing to me if only b.c. I
> >>> know nothing about it!
> >>> -greg
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson
> >>> <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>    Andy,
> >>>    I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair
> >>>    enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy.
> >>>    But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point.
> >>>    It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a
> >>>    particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones
> >>>    who do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries -
> >>>    subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so
> on.
> >>>    Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories
> >>>    of the human sciences?
> >>>    If so, then "real human language" will work just fine.
> >>>    If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose
> >>>    some significant problems for imagining things other than they are.
> >>>    Confused.
> >>>    -greg
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>    On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> >>>    <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>        Cristina,
> >>>        There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email
> >>>        list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I
> >>>        think I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK?
> >>>
> >>>        I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up
> >>>        languages like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs,
> >>>        hyphenated words and other gobbydegook fashionable in some
> >>>        academic circles - can be underestimated. Sure, one must use
> >>>        specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a specialised
> >>>        collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is
> >>>        because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try
> >>>        and make up words and concepts, at least, take a year or two
> >>>        about it if you have to.
> >>>
> >>>        Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first
> >>>        treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of
> >>>        those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of wound
> >>>        up being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was
> >>>        not necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better
> >>>        to suffer association with Descartes than make up words and
> >>>        expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the
> >>>        1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect.
> >>>
> >>>        For example, my development is not the same the development
> >>>        some project makes. And no amount of playing with words can
> >>>        eliminate that without degenerating into nonsense. I must
> >>>        correct something I said which was wrong in my earlier post
> >>>        though. I said that the relation between projects was the
> >>>        crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true.
> >>>        As Jean Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person
> >>>        and a project they are committed to is equally important,
> >>>        their role, so to speak. Take these two together.
> >>>
> >>>        Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I
> >>>        don't agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a
> >>>        start his dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those
> >>>        endorsed by the hegemonic power in the given social formation,
> >>>        and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my
> >>>        view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful for
> >>>        us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of
> >>>        the object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial
> >>>        thing in talking abut motives. Over and above the relation
> >>>        between the worker's project of providing for his family (or
> >>>        whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the
> >>>        proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her
> >>>        capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless
> >>>        seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's
> >>>        subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective"
> >>>        motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours.
> >>>
> >>>        Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic
> >>>        motives, too.
> >>>
> >>>        That's more than enough.
> >>>        Andy
> >>>
> >>>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>        *Andy Blunden*
> >>>        http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> >>>        <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>        Maria Cristina Migliore wrote:
> >>>
> >>>            Greg and Andy,
> >>>
> >>>            Thank you for your comments.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>            Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties
> >>>            of overcoming our
> >>>            western language and thoughts, so influenced by the
> >>>            Cartesian dualism.
> >>>            Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect
> >>>            activities in what
> >>>            follow.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>            About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend
> >>>            to prefer to
> >>>            talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and
> >>>            Wertsh) instead of
> >>>            individual and activity (or context or project)
> >>>            development; b) dimensions
> >>>            of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon
> >>>            (micro-meso-macro); c)
> >>>            motives instead of motivation.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>            However it happens that I need to swing between ‘my’ new
> >>>            language and the
> >>>            ‘standard’ one, because I am living in a still Cartesian
> >>>            world and I need
> >>>            to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am)
> >>>            made of this
> >>>            Cartesian world.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>    --
> >>>    Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> >>>    Assistant Professor
> >>>    Department of Anthropology
> >>>    882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> >>>    Brigham Young University
> >>>    Provo, UT 84602
> >>>    http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> >>> Assistant Professor
> >>> Department of Anthropology
> >>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> >>> Brigham Young University
> >>> Provo, UT 84602
> >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>


-- 

Maria Cristina Migliore, Ph.D.

Senior Researcher


IRES Istituto Ricerche Economico Sociali del Piemonte

Via Nizza, 18

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