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[Xmca-l] Re: Bibler's concept of "formations of Reasoning"



But I think Mike's specific question is a good one, and it cries out for a
specific answer. Where exactly does Vygotsky speak of "consciousness" as
distinct from "intellect"? He certainly discusses consciousness a lot; it
is the "topic that will not speak its name" throughout the whole of
"Thinking and Speech", and one can easily understand why Zavershneva thinks
that "Thinking and Speech" is only the prologue of a much longer trilogy on
consciousness. He also discusses intellect alot; it is the explicit topic
of most of HDHMF, and part of his outrage over "intelligence" testing in
Chapter Fourteen and "accelerated development" in his Lectures on Pedology
is his anger that intellect could be reduced to a kind of ontogenetic
speeding. But where does Vygotsky distinguish the one from the other?

The best answer I can come up with is Chapter Six of "Thinking and Speech",
where Vygotsky places inner speech at the extreme dialogic end of a
continuum which has oral speech in the middle and written speech at the far
monologic end. Of course, this assumes that "inner speech" is a realization
of consciousness and that "written speech" is a realization of intellect,
and that seems a leap too far for Kozulin: both are both. So perhaps the
solution is to consider some mediating layer--some form of meaning
potential which realizes consciousness and is realized as inner speech, and
some other form of meaning potential that realizes intellect and is
realized as writing. That's where, I think, Larry is going when he brings
in Bakhtin and genre: dialogues at the end of consciousness and narratives
at the end of intellect: the two modes of consciousness/intellect--the
episodic and the narrativistic--discussed by Strawson in a paper discussed
by xmca a few years ago.

My graduate students are trying to write a version of Shakespeare's "The
Tempest" for children. This morning one of them condensed the whole of Act
One (except the actual tempest) into the following dialogue:

Miranda: Father--soften the storm. Where is my lover?
Prospero: Don't worry. No one died. Your lover's coming.

(Miranda sleeps)

Ariel: Great Master! I did what you asked.
Prospero: Where are the king's ship and the passengers?
Ariel: They are all safe. The king's ship is in the harbor.

(Prospero goes to look.)

Ariel: Come unto these yellow sands....!
Ferdinand: Where does the music come from? It softens my fury....

(Ferdinand finds the sleeping Miranda.)

You can see--from the parenthetic stage directions, but above all from the
missing intellectations--that dialogue cannot do it all. We need some
narrative here as well! And when we go back to Shakespeare's original text
we do find that most of Act One consists of Prospero's narrative to the
distracted Miranda.

David Kellogg
Hankuk University of Foreign Studies





On 19 May 2014 22:42, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mike, Peter
> Thanks for keeping this thread moving.
>
> Mike, your reflection on models of schooling *expanding beyond* the
> ethnocentrism of Bibler's model seems to be an underlying *value* built
> into the model.
> The model seems to  presume multiple logics and rationalities [cultural
> historical formations or schemas] and therefore Eurocentric formations
> within this model must also be transfigured through dialogue.
>
> Bibler's approach focuses on learning multiple particular schemas through
> an *immersion* experience at each grade level. The intent is to live
> through the experience of *knowing* within each sociocultural schema
> by the approach of reading the *primary documents* and developing the
> unique *logic/value* of that particular schema. [various grades in school
> offer immersion experiences in different logic formations]
>
> This approach would hopefully develop within each person a polylogical
> sensibility that would situate the scientific logic of our current
> sociocultural schema as only one particular formation which could be put
> into dialogue with previous formations which are seen as equally valid
> formations that continue to enter interplay with our scientific biases.
>
> To *extend* and *go beyond* the ethnocentrism of Bibler's model which is
> biased toward *Eurocentric presuppositions* seems to be a natural extension
> of the model.
>
> Mike,
> I read Alex Kozulin writings on Bibler's approach as an example of
> Vygotsky's writings on *inner speech* being put into dialogue with
> Bahktin's writings on *readings and genres* as formations of consciousness.
> The reciprocal movements of orientation moving towards *internal* speech*
> AND the interplay with the movements of orientation moving towards cultural
> historical schemas. How these movements of orientation are linked *hinges*
> or *pivots* on this reciprocal interplay.
>
> This seems to offer a model of schooling AS reciprocal conversations
> developing *thinking*, *speech*, and *readings* as mutually reciprocal
> intersubjective experiences.
>
> The underlying movement of answerability as responding to emerging
> questions that is moving *beyond* received knowledge formations/logics by
> the process of *living through* and exploring the concealed logics within
> each schema.
> The centrality of *gaps* and *openings* emerging within all received
> *knowings* which then *call us* into dialogue and re-search and experiments
> [as dialogical ways of orienting] which develop through dialogue and the
> reciprocal engagement of self-reflection AND intersubjective reflection.
>
> The question Alex Kozulin leaves open is the notion of *higher forms*
> *sublating* earlier formations OR if these earlier formations are
> continually in dialogue with later formations.
>
> The concept *sociocultural schemas* is the notion Alex Kozulin explored in
> his book inviting us to re-engage this concept within a revitalized
> *humanism*. Bibler's approach to schooling is one particular answer to
> Kozulin's general question of how do we engage with *sociocultural schemas*
> as dialogically developing formations.
> I read Kozulin's question as a movement of going beyond received traditions
> while honouring these traditions. Moving through *Eurocentrism* to go
> *beyond* and embrace other sociocultural schemas in dialogue with
> *Eurocentric* models is an approach of deepening our conversations
> AS questions and answers. Conversations as gestures within genres. This
> approach has the potential to develop polylogical ways of orienting as we
> move forward within a new expanding humanism of communicative action.
>
> Alex may have more to contribute on this theme of sharing mutual dialogue
> towards finding *common ground* within a new commons
> Larry
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 6:34 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thank you for sending your overview of the papers based Bibler's ideas
> and
> > their pedagogical implications, Peter. And thanks for the succinct
> summary
> > from Alex Kozulin, Larry.
> >
> > To me it seems that the only way to overcome the ethnocentricism in the
> > model is to make the conversation a global polylogue, Peter. Creating the
> > conditions for such a polylogue within the structures of state or
> business
> > scientific structure of power seems a real challenge, even for the
> wealthy.
> >
> > What source(s) does one take as the purpose of education, as a social
> > category and its related social institutions of implementation?
> Constantly
> > posing the questions seems one source. Creating alternatives seems
> another.
> > One hopes that where there is a way there will also be a will!
> >
> > We'll see.
> >
> > Meantime, I had a question about the quotation from Alex's work, so I
> will
> > include him the discussion, the contents of which he knows far better
> than
> > I. The statement that caught my eye was this:
> >
> > At this moment it seems relevant to recall Vygotsky's distinction between
> > consciousness and intellect. Intellect, and its OBJECTIVIZED FORM,
> > scientific reasoning, are MONOLOGOUS and object-oriented, while
> > consciousness, which is ORGANIZED by the system of *senses* is
> NECESSARILY
> > dialogical.
> >
> > ​Here is my question: Where is this well known distinction between
> > consciousness and intellect best represented in Vygotsky's writings?
> >
> > ((It seems important to suggest that a consciously organized system of
> > senses
> > (as in sense/meaning) would be polylogical, that is, ideally, global.
> > Binary systems, in particular, seem to be unstable in ways that are not
> > condusive to human develpment.))
> >
> > mike
> >
> > ​
> >
> > On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 4:10 AM, Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Here's my contribution.
> > > Smagorinsky, P. (2011). A distant perspective on the School of the
> > > Dialogue of Cultures pedagogical movement in Ukraine and Russia.
> Journal
> > of
> > > Russian and East European Psychology, 49(2), 29-35. Available at
> > > http://www.petersmagorinsky.net/About/PDF/JREEP/JREEP2011.pdf
> > >
> > > Peter Smagorinsky
> > > Distinguished Research Professor of English Education
> > > Department of Language and Literacy Education
> > > The University of Georgia
> > > 315 Aderhold Hall
> > > Athens, GA 30602
> > >
> > > Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education
> > >
> > > Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 10:14 PM
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Bibler's concept of "formations of Reasoning"
> > >
> > > Thanks, Peter
> > >
> > > What year was volume 49 (2) ??
> > >
> > > Has the XMCA community discussed Bibler's way of orienting to education
> > > and its purpose as *humanistic*.  Seeing *reason* as developing
> distinct
> > > formations historically and these various formations continuing to be
> in
> > > *dialogue* within contemporary ways of understanding.  The current
> > > scientific mode/genre of reasoning as a particular formation expressing
> > > particular assumptions which can be put in dialogue with earlier
> > formations
> > > that CONTINUE to inform contemporary reasoning processes.
> > >
> > > I will elaborate by referring to chapter 7 [The Life of Ideas] in Alex
> > > Kozulin's book *Vygotsky's Psychology*. Onn page 254 is an outline of
> how
> > > Kozulin views Vygotsky's legacy developing in the 1970's & 1980's.
> > >  Kozulin wrote:
> > > "To give some idea of how Vygotsky's theoretical legacy was developed
> in
> > > the 1970's and 1980's  I will concentrate on three directions. The
> first
> > > direction  included a constructive critique of Vygotsky's notion of
> > > *scientific* concepts and the development of  a new program for the
> study
> > > of theoretical concept formation in schoolchildren. The second
> direction
> > of
> > > research was associated with the fundamental epistemological critique
>  of
> > > psychology based on the natural-scientific model and the proposals for
> > the
> > > NEW HUMANISTIC PSYCHOLOGY and psychotherapy.  The third direction
> > explored
> > > the philosophical importance of Vygotsky's work together with the work
> of
> > > Bahktin.. The problem of the dialogical nature of human consciousness
> > came
> > > to the forefront and proposals were made for a new logic based on a
> > > dialogue between different *cultures of thinking*"
> > > Kozulin in chapter 7 then expands his understanding of each of these
> > three
> > > directions.
> > > The second direction [a new humanistic psychology] references Vasilyk's
> > > book *The Psychology of Experiencing* as an example of this new
> > direction.
> > > Vasilyk contrasts *defense mechanisms* with the notion of *overcoming*
> by
> > > *living through* crisis. The individual *lives through* a crisis ONLY
> by
> > > plugging into the *sociocultural schemas* that are supra-individual. At
> > the
> > > same time *plugging into* the sociocultural schemas does NOT lift the
> > > requirement of *authoring* [overcoming] but rather emphasizes
> > *authoring*.
> > > Overcoming/authoring is impossible without sociocultural schemas but
> can
> > > be accomplished only in a highly individual way. In Vasilyk's book the
> > idea
> > > of *psychological tools* was EXTENDED to include the sociocultural
> > schemas
> > > of religious character AND the critical issue of the issue of MEDIATION
> > > THROUGH THE  SIGNIFICANT OTHER is explored. Kozulin suggests Vasilyk is
> > an
> > > example of this second new direction Vygotsky's legacy extended within
> > > humanistic psychology.
> > >
> > > The third direction opened up by Vygotsky's legacy in the 1970's and
> > > 1980's is the theme of *dialogical* human nature.
> > > Vladimir Bibler is exploring one particular type or genre within
> > > dialogical notions of human nature. [the dialogue between different
> > SYSTEMS
> > > OF LOGIC].
> > > Bibler suggests the represented object is different in different
> *systems
> > > of thought*.   Kozulin writes:
> > > "The dialogue of these systems would REVEAL the object as *encircled*
> by
> > > different forms of cognitive representation, no one of which is either
> > > final or *encompassing*. Such a dialogue, however, is impossible as
> long
> > as
> > > the scientific inquiry is taken as the prototype of THE logic of human
> > > thought. Scientific epistemology, as it was formulated in the
> seventeenth
> > > through the nineteenth centuries PRESUPPOSES a continuous progression
> of
> > > thought and the SUBLATION of the achievements of the past into new,
> > HIGHER
> > > forms of theorizing. Such a prototype would not allow for a truly
> > > dialogical relationship between DIFFERENT SYSTEMS, because one of them
> > > should necessarily appear as a special case of the MORE DEVELOPED one."
> > > [page 270]
> > >
> > > Kozulin goes on in referring to Vladimir Bibler's project to say:
> > >
> > > " While Vygotsk's study of inner speech suggested to Bibler the
> > > psychological model of the process of thought formation, Bahktin'a
> > analysis
> > > of the novel armed him with the philosophy of culture BASED on the idea
> > of
> > > dialogue.... What is meant by Bahktin is NOT an explicit, overt
> dialogue
> > in
> > > which two voices are engaged, but an INNER dialogic quality of a text,
> > > EVERY ELEMENT of which is incorporating the overtones of other texts.
> > This
> > > sometimes hidden dialogic NATURE OF A TEXT is a REFLECTION of the
> > > essentially dialogical nature of human consciousness. At this moment it
> > > seems relevant to recall Vygotsky's distinction between consciousness
> and
> > > intellect. Intellect, and its OBJECTIVIZED FORM, scientific reasoning,
> > are
> > > MONOLOGOUS and object-oriented, while consciousness, which is ORGANIZED
> > by
> > > the system of *senses* is NECESSARILY dialogical.  That is why
> language,
> > > according to Vygotsky, is a microcosm of the human consciousness rather
> > > than that of the intellect." [page 271]
> > >
> > > Peter, I have ventriloquated Kozulin's voice [and also other voices
> from
> > > Kozulin's *readings*.
> > > The concept *sociocultural schemas* was used by Kozulin to explore
> > > DISTINCT formations of reason within particular epochs. His central
> point
> > > is that these formations are NOT sublated but continue to *plug in* to
> > > contempory formations of reason* [as dialogically emergent] Vladimir
> > Bibler
> > > has attempted within the *School of Cultural Dialogues* to help
> students
> > > learn to think and converse in each of these DISTINCT forms of reason.
> He
> > > assumes that by learning to *plug in* each type [genre] a student can
> > also
> > > learn to see the dialogical nature of our current way of scientific
> > > reasoning as one particular type and not a universal capacity.
> > >
> > > Then a student can learn to be more playful and flexible with the
> > multiple
> > > types of reasoning that continue to develop in our ongoing interplay.
> > >
> > > I'm curious if the 3 directions Kozulin was *reading* into Vygotsky's
> > > legacy in the 1970's and 1980's are continuing to inform Vygotsky's
> > legacy
> > > or is Kozulin's *reading* a minor stream of Vygotsky in-search and
> > > re-search?
> > >
> > > Peter, thanks for the lead to the JREEP article's on Bibler.
> > >
> > > So many varied *readings* Of Vygotsky to try to understand and
> interpret
> > >
> > > Larry
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Kozulin's book on Vygotsky has
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Eugene Matusov edited an issue of JREEP dedicated to the School of
> the
> > > > Dialogue of Cultures. Journal of Russian and East European
> Psychology,
> > > > 49(2), http://www.mesharpe.com/mall/results1.asp?ACR=rpo
> > > >
> > > > Peter Smagorinsky
> > > > Distinguished Research Professor of English Education Department of
> > > > Language and Literacy Education The University of Georgia
> > > > 315 Aderhold Hall
> > > > Athens, GA 30602
> > > >
> > > > Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education
> > > >
> > > > Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> > > > xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry
> > > > xmca-l-bounces+Purss
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 10:56 AM
> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Bibler's concept of "formations of Reasoning"
> > > >
> > > > Valdimir Bibler was recently mentioned on this site. He has
> > > > participated in creating the "School of the Dialogue of Cultures"
> > > > which uses as its central construct "formations or systems of
> > reasoning".
> > > > Kozulin refers to this construct as "sociocultural schemas"
> > > > Binswanger refers to "world designs"
> > > > Gadamer refers to "horizons of understanding"
> > > >
> > > > This construct does not see knowledge as *sublated* but each new
> > > > *formation* enters into dialogue with previous formations of
> > > > consciousness AND knowledge is the process OF REVEALING the
> dialogical
> > > > nature of this EMERGING encounter between formations of *reasoning*
> > > > Bibler has developed a school system where students engage in USING
> > > > these various formations of histrorically developed *reasons* as
> > > world-designs.
> > > >
> > > > I'm fascinated with the family resemblance with Gadmer and
> > > > Binswanger's ideas as sharing common intersections.
> > > > Larry
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>