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[Xmca-l] Re: Bibler's concept of "formations of Reasoning"



Mike, Peter
Thanks for keeping this thread moving.

Mike, your reflection on models of schooling *expanding beyond* the
ethnocentrism of Bibler's model seems to be an underlying *value* built
into the model.
The model seems to  presume multiple logics and rationalities [cultural
historical formations or schemas] and therefore Eurocentric formations
within this model must also be transfigured through dialogue.

Bibler's approach focuses on learning multiple particular schemas through
an *immersion* experience at each grade level. The intent is to live
through the experience of *knowing* within each sociocultural schema
by the approach of reading the *primary documents* and developing the
unique *logic/value* of that particular schema. [various grades in school
offer immersion experiences in different logic formations]

This approach would hopefully develop within each person a polylogical
sensibility that would situate the scientific logic of our current
sociocultural schema as only one particular formation which could be put
into dialogue with previous formations which are seen as equally valid
formations that continue to enter interplay with our scientific biases.

To *extend* and *go beyond* the ethnocentrism of Bibler's model which is
biased toward *Eurocentric presuppositions* seems to be a natural extension
of the model.

Mike,
I read Alex Kozulin writings on Bibler's approach as an example of
Vygotsky's writings on *inner speech* being put into dialogue with
Bahktin's writings on *readings and genres* as formations of consciousness.
The reciprocal movements of orientation moving towards *internal* speech*
AND the interplay with the movements of orientation moving towards cultural
historical schemas. How these movements of orientation are linked *hinges*
or *pivots* on this reciprocal interplay.

This seems to offer a model of schooling AS reciprocal conversations
developing *thinking*, *speech*, and *readings* as mutually reciprocal
intersubjective experiences.

The underlying movement of answerability as responding to emerging
questions that is moving *beyond* received knowledge formations/logics by
the process of *living through* and exploring the concealed logics within
each schema.
The centrality of *gaps* and *openings* emerging within all received
*knowings* which then *call us* into dialogue and re-search and experiments
[as dialogical ways of orienting] which develop through dialogue and the
reciprocal engagement of self-reflection AND intersubjective reflection.

The question Alex Kozulin leaves open is the notion of *higher forms*
*sublating* earlier formations OR if these earlier formations are
continually in dialogue with later formations.

The concept *sociocultural schemas* is the notion Alex Kozulin explored in
his book inviting us to re-engage this concept within a revitalized
*humanism*. Bibler's approach to schooling is one particular answer to
Kozulin's general question of how do we engage with *sociocultural schemas*
as dialogically developing formations.
I read Kozulin's question as a movement of going beyond received traditions
while honouring these traditions. Moving through *Eurocentrism* to go
*beyond* and embrace other sociocultural schemas in dialogue with
*Eurocentric* models is an approach of deepening our conversations
AS questions and answers. Conversations as gestures within genres. This
approach has the potential to develop polylogical ways of orienting as we
move forward within a new expanding humanism of communicative action.

Alex may have more to contribute on this theme of sharing mutual dialogue
towards finding *common ground* within a new commons
Larry






On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 6:34 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you for sending your overview of the papers based Bibler's ideas and
> their pedagogical implications, Peter. And thanks for the succinct summary
> from Alex Kozulin, Larry.
>
> To me it seems that the only way to overcome the ethnocentricism in the
> model is to make the conversation a global polylogue, Peter. Creating the
> conditions for such a polylogue within the structures of state or business
> scientific structure of power seems a real challenge, even for the wealthy.
>
> What source(s) does one take as the purpose of education, as a social
> category and its related social institutions of implementation? Constantly
> posing the questions seems one source. Creating alternatives seems another.
> One hopes that where there is a way there will also be a will!
>
> We'll see.
>
> Meantime, I had a question about the quotation from Alex's work, so I will
> include him the discussion, the contents of which he knows far better than
> I. The statement that caught my eye was this:
>
> At this moment it seems relevant to recall Vygotsky's distinction between
> consciousness and intellect. Intellect, and its OBJECTIVIZED FORM,
> scientific reasoning, are MONOLOGOUS and object-oriented, while
> consciousness, which is ORGANIZED by the system of *senses* is NECESSARILY
> dialogical.
>
> ​Here is my question: Where is this well known distinction between
> consciousness and intellect best represented in Vygotsky's writings?
>
> ((It seems important to suggest that a consciously organized system of
> senses
> (as in sense/meaning) would be polylogical, that is, ideally, global.
> Binary systems, in particular, seem to be unstable in ways that are not
> condusive to human develpment.))
>
> mike
>
> ​
>
> On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 4:10 AM, Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu> wrote:
>
> > Here's my contribution.
> > Smagorinsky, P. (2011). A distant perspective on the School of the
> > Dialogue of Cultures pedagogical movement in Ukraine and Russia. Journal
> of
> > Russian and East European Psychology, 49(2), 29-35. Available at
> > http://www.petersmagorinsky.net/About/PDF/JREEP/JREEP2011.pdf
> >
> > Peter Smagorinsky
> > Distinguished Research Professor of English Education
> > Department of Language and Literacy Education
> > The University of Georgia
> > 315 Aderhold Hall
> > Athens, GA 30602
> >
> > Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education
> >
> > Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 10:14 PM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Bibler's concept of "formations of Reasoning"
> >
> > Thanks, Peter
> >
> > What year was volume 49 (2) ??
> >
> > Has the XMCA community discussed Bibler's way of orienting to education
> > and its purpose as *humanistic*.  Seeing *reason* as developing distinct
> > formations historically and these various formations continuing to be in
> > *dialogue* within contemporary ways of understanding.  The current
> > scientific mode/genre of reasoning as a particular formation expressing
> > particular assumptions which can be put in dialogue with earlier
> formations
> > that CONTINUE to inform contemporary reasoning processes.
> >
> > I will elaborate by referring to chapter 7 [The Life of Ideas] in Alex
> > Kozulin's book *Vygotsky's Psychology*. Onn page 254 is an outline of how
> > Kozulin views Vygotsky's legacy developing in the 1970's & 1980's.
> >  Kozulin wrote:
> > "To give some idea of how Vygotsky's theoretical legacy was developed in
> > the 1970's and 1980's  I will concentrate on three directions. The first
> > direction  included a constructive critique of Vygotsky's notion of
> > *scientific* concepts and the development of  a new program for the study
> > of theoretical concept formation in schoolchildren. The second direction
> of
> > research was associated with the fundamental epistemological critique  of
> > psychology based on the natural-scientific model and the proposals for
> the
> > NEW HUMANISTIC PSYCHOLOGY and psychotherapy.  The third direction
> explored
> > the philosophical importance of Vygotsky's work together with the work of
> > Bahktin.. The problem of the dialogical nature of human consciousness
> came
> > to the forefront and proposals were made for a new logic based on a
> > dialogue between different *cultures of thinking*"
> > Kozulin in chapter 7 then expands his understanding of each of these
> three
> > directions.
> > The second direction [a new humanistic psychology] references Vasilyk's
> > book *The Psychology of Experiencing* as an example of this new
> direction.
> > Vasilyk contrasts *defense mechanisms* with the notion of *overcoming* by
> > *living through* crisis. The individual *lives through* a crisis ONLY by
> > plugging into the *sociocultural schemas* that are supra-individual. At
> the
> > same time *plugging into* the sociocultural schemas does NOT lift the
> > requirement of *authoring* [overcoming] but rather emphasizes
> *authoring*.
> > Overcoming/authoring is impossible without sociocultural schemas but can
> > be accomplished only in a highly individual way. In Vasilyk's book the
> idea
> > of *psychological tools* was EXTENDED to include the sociocultural
> schemas
> > of religious character AND the critical issue of the issue of MEDIATION
> > THROUGH THE  SIGNIFICANT OTHER is explored. Kozulin suggests Vasilyk is
> an
> > example of this second new direction Vygotsky's legacy extended within
> > humanistic psychology.
> >
> > The third direction opened up by Vygotsky's legacy in the 1970's and
> > 1980's is the theme of *dialogical* human nature.
> > Vladimir Bibler is exploring one particular type or genre within
> > dialogical notions of human nature. [the dialogue between different
> SYSTEMS
> > OF LOGIC].
> > Bibler suggests the represented object is different in different *systems
> > of thought*.   Kozulin writes:
> > "The dialogue of these systems would REVEAL the object as *encircled* by
> > different forms of cognitive representation, no one of which is either
> > final or *encompassing*. Such a dialogue, however, is impossible as long
> as
> > the scientific inquiry is taken as the prototype of THE logic of human
> > thought. Scientific epistemology, as it was formulated in the seventeenth
> > through the nineteenth centuries PRESUPPOSES a continuous progression of
> > thought and the SUBLATION of the achievements of the past into new,
> HIGHER
> > forms of theorizing. Such a prototype would not allow for a truly
> > dialogical relationship between DIFFERENT SYSTEMS, because one of them
> > should necessarily appear as a special case of the MORE DEVELOPED one."
> > [page 270]
> >
> > Kozulin goes on in referring to Vladimir Bibler's project to say:
> >
> > " While Vygotsk's study of inner speech suggested to Bibler the
> > psychological model of the process of thought formation, Bahktin'a
> analysis
> > of the novel armed him with the philosophy of culture BASED on the idea
> of
> > dialogue.... What is meant by Bahktin is NOT an explicit, overt dialogue
> in
> > which two voices are engaged, but an INNER dialogic quality of a text,
> > EVERY ELEMENT of which is incorporating the overtones of other texts.
> This
> > sometimes hidden dialogic NATURE OF A TEXT is a REFLECTION of the
> > essentially dialogical nature of human consciousness. At this moment it
> > seems relevant to recall Vygotsky's distinction between consciousness and
> > intellect. Intellect, and its OBJECTIVIZED FORM, scientific reasoning,
> are
> > MONOLOGOUS and object-oriented, while consciousness, which is ORGANIZED
> by
> > the system of *senses* is NECESSARILY dialogical.  That is why language,
> > according to Vygotsky, is a microcosm of the human consciousness rather
> > than that of the intellect." [page 271]
> >
> > Peter, I have ventriloquated Kozulin's voice [and also other voices from
> > Kozulin's *readings*.
> > The concept *sociocultural schemas* was used by Kozulin to explore
> > DISTINCT formations of reason within particular epochs. His central point
> > is that these formations are NOT sublated but continue to *plug in* to
> > contempory formations of reason* [as dialogically emergent] Vladimir
> Bibler
> > has attempted within the *School of Cultural Dialogues* to help students
> > learn to think and converse in each of these DISTINCT forms of reason. He
> > assumes that by learning to *plug in* each type [genre] a student can
> also
> > learn to see the dialogical nature of our current way of scientific
> > reasoning as one particular type and not a universal capacity.
> >
> > Then a student can learn to be more playful and flexible with the
> multiple
> > types of reasoning that continue to develop in our ongoing interplay.
> >
> > I'm curious if the 3 directions Kozulin was *reading* into Vygotsky's
> > legacy in the 1970's and 1980's are continuing to inform Vygotsky's
> legacy
> > or is Kozulin's *reading* a minor stream of Vygotsky in-search and
> > re-search?
> >
> > Peter, thanks for the lead to the JREEP article's on Bibler.
> >
> > So many varied *readings* Of Vygotsky to try to understand and interpret
> >
> > Larry
> >
> >
> >
> > Kozulin's book on Vygotsky has
> >
> >
> > On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Eugene Matusov edited an issue of JREEP dedicated to the School of the
> > > Dialogue of Cultures. Journal of Russian and East European Psychology,
> > > 49(2), http://www.mesharpe.com/mall/results1.asp?ACR=rpo
> > >
> > > Peter Smagorinsky
> > > Distinguished Research Professor of English Education Department of
> > > Language and Literacy Education The University of Georgia
> > > 315 Aderhold Hall
> > > Athens, GA 30602
> > >
> > > Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education
> > >
> > > Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> > > xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry
> > > xmca-l-bounces+Purss
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 10:56 AM
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Bibler's concept of "formations of Reasoning"
> > >
> > > Valdimir Bibler was recently mentioned on this site. He has
> > > participated in creating the "School of the Dialogue of Cultures"
> > > which uses as its central construct "formations or systems of
> reasoning".
> > > Kozulin refers to this construct as "sociocultural schemas"
> > > Binswanger refers to "world designs"
> > > Gadamer refers to "horizons of understanding"
> > >
> > > This construct does not see knowledge as *sublated* but each new
> > > *formation* enters into dialogue with previous formations of
> > > consciousness AND knowledge is the process OF REVEALING the dialogical
> > > nature of this EMERGING encounter between formations of *reasoning*
> > > Bibler has developed a school system where students engage in USING
> > > these various formations of histrorically developed *reasons* as
> > world-designs.
> > >
> > > I'm fascinated with the family resemblance with Gadmer and
> > > Binswanger's ideas as sharing common intersections.
> > > Larry
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>