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[Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism



Michael,
Are you suggesting that "immediate" experience and/or "flow" is unmediated?
Or are you saying something else?
-greg


On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu>wrote:

> Just an issue of theoretical serendipity I thought I might share.
>  Yesterday I spent two hours with my class discussing Dewey's concept of
> immediate experience and mediate experience - which he also sometimes
> refers to as primary experience and secondary experience.
>
> Then this morning I read across this sentence in the Michael Roth article
> that Mike sent relating to the discussion of mediation
>
> The adjective immediate is the antonym of mediate, mediated. It is used in
> the
> sense that there is 'no intermediary or intervening member, medium, or
> agent'
> (Simpson, 2005a).
>
> What is interesting here is that I'm guessing at least some cultural
> historical theorists do see mediate and immediate as opposites (I'd be
> interested to hear more on this) but what we came to in our discussions
> yesterday (if you can even come to anything when discussing Dewey) is that
> he saw the two as something of a continuum.  The immediate experience is
> what you experienced at the moment and as a result of that experience you
> make connections back to mediated experience (prior experience that is
> given to us through symbols) expanding its meaning and pushing us forward.
>  Immediate experience without the connections back to mediate experience is
> the experience of brutes.  But mediate experience divorced from immediate
> experience is hollow and empty.  We need to maintain that connection back
> and forth but always starting with immediate experience.
>
> Roth also compares immediate experience to flow (no, I am not going to try
> and spell the guy's name) and I think Dewey agrees with this, but he sees
> what we now refer to as flow (and Dewey refers to as seeing the value of
> the end in the sequence of the means) as much, much more common to our
> activities.  It is any time we are really engaged in the activity for the
> sake of the activity, and it can be anything.  As a matter of fact that is
> what much of education should be about - teaching us to approach activities
> as immediate experience that is then informed by mediated experience.
>
> Just an interesting connection between immediate experience and mediate
> experience coming out of this conversation.
>
> Michael
> ________________________________________
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu]
> on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 4:12 PM
> To: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe
> Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
>
> Is the blind man's stick mediating his actions in the world, even when he
> is meeting no obstacles so that he "see right through it"? When culture is
> sufficiently appropriated/internalized so that we "see right through it" do
> we say that culture no longer mediates our experience of the world?
>
> Here is what Michael Roth wrote about the issue, a while back. His view.
> mike
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe <
> pmocombe@mocombeian.com
> > wrote:
>
> > Michael,
> >
> > Your example bears witness to the three stances, ready-to-hand,
> > unready-to-hand, and present-at-hand, of Dasein highlighted by heidegger
> >
> >
> > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe
> > President
> > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc.
> > www.mocombeian.com
> > www.readingroomcurriculum.com
> > www.paulcmocombe.info
> >
> >
> > -------- Original message --------
> > From: "Glassman, Michael"
> > Date:04/01/2014 12:31 PM (GMT-05:00)
> > To: lchcmike@gmail.com,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > I wonder about the issue of tools.  If something is use unconsciously,
> > without overt awareness of its implications, is it really a tool.  I
> think
> > of labels as being used certainly in the development of small groups as
> > overt tools of power and control, but also in larger societies in ways
> that
> > individuals are not even aware of.  It is sort of like, when riding a
> > bicycle we understand the tires as tools driving us forward.  But what
> > about the grooves in the back path that we naturally fall into, that take
> > us in a particular direction without us even realizing that this is
> > happening to us.  Can we say we are manipulated by those grooves?  Are
> they
> > really tools?  We don't even realize the grooves are there until someone
> > yells out "where are you going" and we realize the grooves have been
> > controlling our behavioral trajectory.
> >
> > I don't know.  I feel like this bears some relationship to Sylvia
> > Scribners' three epochs of human history (am I remembering this right?)
> or
> > perhaps Paul's ideas on sub-atomic particles which is fascinating but I
> am
> > having a hard time processing.
> >
> > Michael
> > ________________________________________
> > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu]
> > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:27 AM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
> >
> > Michael/Paul--- Wouldn't Vygotsky say, invoking the notion of dual
> > stimulation, that if you mediate your action through a label (a cultural
> > artifact par excellance) you not only act differently toward the other
> but
> > are yourself changed (in fact, more or less literally, your position with
> > respect to the other is changed) as you subordinate yourself to this
> "tool"
> > and control yourself "from the outside" ??
> >
> > Greg has been writing about positioning and labelling.
> >
> > Vis a vis symbolic interactionism.  Kenneth Burke seems to me a
> productive
> > person to think with. See below.
> >
> > mike
> >
> > mike
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe <
> > pmocombe@mocombeian.com
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi michael...yes I have checked into labeling theory...it is in doing
> so
> > > that I cam across the similarities between vygotsky and mead
> > >
> > >
> > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe
> > > President
> > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc.
> > > www.mocombeian.com
> > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com
> > > www.paulcmocombe.info
> > >
> > > <div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: "Glassman,
> > > Michael" <glassman.13@osu.edu> </div><div>Date:04/01/2014  9:08 AM
> > >  (GMT-05:00) </div><div>To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <
> > > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> </div><div>Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's
> > > theory and symbolic interactionism </div><div>
> > > </div>Paul,
> > >
> > > I think your view of symbolic interactionism (as related to Mead) as
> > being
> > > a tool of power and domination is more reflective of Mead's theory than
> > you
> > > might think.  Have you looked at labeling theory?  Also a trajectory
> > taken
> > > by Mead's students which seems pretty close to what you want to day.
>  I'm
> > > not sure what role Vygotsky would play in this.
> > >
> > > Michael
> > > ________________________________________
> > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> ]
> > > on behalf of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe [pmocombe@mocombeian.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:58 AM
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole
> > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
> > >
> > > At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave
> > > dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e.
> > > Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to
> > > socialization via language and symbolic interaction.  This is similar
> to
> > > the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno.  I
> > have
> > > a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as
> always
> > > an element of power and domination.  In essence my research question
> is,
> > > "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to
> > > socialization/domination by symbols and language.  Haitian metaphysics
> > says
> > > yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as
> > the
> > > i and me of language and symbolic interaction.  Zora Neale hurston in
> her
> > > ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this
> in
> > > her literature...it is the essence of who we are.  I may have to go
> into
> > > the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic.
> > >
> > >
> > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe
> > > President
> > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc.
> > > www.mocombeian.com
> > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com
> > > www.paulcmocombe.info
> > >
> > > <div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Greg Thompson <
> > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> </div><div>Date:03/31/2014  11:53 PM
> > > (GMT-05:00) </div><div>To: Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>,"eXtended
> > Mind,
> > > Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> </div><div>Subject:
> > [Xmca-l]
> > > Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism </div><div>
> > > </div>Paul,
> > > And another piece you might be interested in:
> > > Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction
> in
> > > the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and
> Kaye
> > to
> > > Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447.
> > > doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433
> > >
> > > I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead.
> > Mead
> > > said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what
> > > Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have
> > the
> > > exact quote somewhere if you're interested.
> > >
> > > The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but
> > it
> > > seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been
> > > influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I
> think
> > > they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other
> of
> > > this argument...).
> > >
> > > I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and
> > > complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat
> about
> > > the Mead/Vygotsky link.
> > >
> > > -greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion
> > to
> > > > Vygotsky".
> > > >
> > > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to
> understand
> > > > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework.
> > > >
> > > > mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe <
> > > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert
> > mead's
> > > > > symbolic interactionism with
> > > > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone?
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe
> > > > > President
> > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc.
> > > > > www.mocombeian.com
> > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com
> > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info
> > > > >
> > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities
> > > > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > Assistant Professor
> > > Department of Anthropology
> > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > > Brigham Young University
> > > Provo, UT 84602
> > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>


-- 
Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor
Department of Anthropology
883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson