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[Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class



Yes, a little fast and loose in writing. I read Hegel as a theorist of subjectivity that is born out of interactions with others mediated by thirdness (ie culture). "Consummation" is bakhtins term. So I was suggesting that these are similar. 

I should add that this opposes a dominant reading of bakhtin's dialogism being opposed to hegels dialectic. But I have a hard time seeing how bakhtin's notion of consummation is anything other than a dialectic. But I'm willing to be convinced otherwise...
Haven't been able to look at the chapter in the book Martin sent (thanks Martin!). 
Greg 

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 25, 2014, at 1:07 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> Yes, as usual I was too quick to respond.
> It was the end of your first message which led me astray:
> 
>   is not about the intrinsic flowering of the individual but rather is
>   about the imbricated emergence of an individual who is shot through
>   / consummated by others. (pace Hegel, imho).
> 
> It was not obvious what the "pace" referred to.
> 
> Andy
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> 
> 
> Greg Thompson wrote:
>> Andy, sorry for the delayed response. Like David, I think you've read my post against my intentions. My point was to locate Hegel and Bakhtin together so as to suggest that neither Bakhtin nor Hegel were childist. Quite the opposite. Still catching up.
>> -greg
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 5:44 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>> 
>>    Well, Hegel says very little about recognition in his mature
>>    works, and I sort of doubt that Bakhtin studied the works of the
>>    Young Hegel and was "influenced" or "inflected" by them, but I
>>    don't know much about Bakhtin.
>> 
>>    But I really don't know how you can connect Hegel's theory of
>>    subjectivity to "childism" I really don't. Are yo ureferring to
>>    the Logic, or what he has to say about education in the Philosophy
>>    of Right, or his Psychology in the Philosophy of Spirit? One of
>>    the bees Hegel had in his bonnet was the fad (as he saw it) for
>>    wanting children to "think for themselves". Hegel thought this was
>>    liberal silliness. What passage of Hegel gave you this impression,
>>    Greg?
>> 
>> 
>>    Andy
>>    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>    *Andy Blunden*
>>    http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
>> 
>> 
>>    Greg Thompson wrote:
>> 
>>        Andy,
>> 
>>        I fear that you are going to discover that I'm really a one
>>        trick pony...
>> 
>>        I read Bakhtin's notion of "consummation" as being inflected
>>        by Hegel's concept of recognition (it isn't exactly the same
>>        but the parallels are striking - one is consummated by the
>>        gaze of the other).
>>        And I think the Hegel's theory of subjectivity is
>>        fundamentally contrary to the childist theory of subjectivity
>>        which is more Kantian to my mind (I fear that may take a lot
>>        of explaining, but I'll leave it at that for now).
>> 
>>        I'd love to hear more from David about what he thinks the
>>        consequences are of taking on a childist approach. What is
>>        lost in that approach? And similarly, what is gained by taking
>>        a more Vygotskian approach?
>>        -greg
>> 
>> 
>>        On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 2:10 AM, Andy Blunden
>>        <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
>> 
>>            why do you say "pace Hegel" Greg?
>> 
>>            andy
>>                   ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>            *Andy Blunden*
>>            http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>        <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>            Greg Thompson wrote:
>> 
>>                David,
>>                Yes, you caught what I was saying in your
>>        parenthetical. My
>>                point was that
>>                Vera nicely lays out and critiques the dominant view of
>>                creativity - i.e.
>>                the one where creativity is anti-social.
>> 
>>                And I'd add that in my reading of Bakhtin, I have
>>        difficulty
>>                imagining him
>>                as a childist, not because of his disdain for children (a
>>                topic of which I
>>                had no knowledge prior to your post), but because I
>>        see him as
>>                drawing on a
>>                different understanding of human subjectivity - one
>>        that draws
>>                from a
>>                tradition that is not about the intrinsic flowering of the
>>                individual but
>>                rather is about the imbricated emergence of an
>>        individual who
>>                is shot
>>                through / consummated by others. (pace Hegel, imho).
>> 
>>                -greg
> 

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