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[Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class



Yes, as usual I was too quick to respond.
It was the end of your first message which led me astray:

   is not about the intrinsic flowering of the individual but rather is
   about the imbricated emergence of an individual who is shot through
   / consummated by others. (pace Hegel, imho).

It was not obvious what the "pace" referred to.

Andy
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
http://home.mira.net/~andy/


Greg Thompson wrote:
Andy, sorry for the delayed response. Like David, I think you've read my post against my intentions. My point was to locate Hegel and Bakhtin together so as to suggest that neither Bakhtin nor Hegel were childist. Quite the opposite. Still catching up.
-greg


On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 5:44 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:

    Well, Hegel says very little about recognition in his mature
    works, and I sort of doubt that Bakhtin studied the works of the
    Young Hegel and was "influenced" or "inflected" by them, but I
    don't know much about Bakhtin.

    But I really don't know how you can connect Hegel's theory of
    subjectivity to "childism" I really don't. Are yo ureferring to
    the Logic, or what he has to say about education in the Philosophy
    of Right, or his Psychology in the Philosophy of Spirit? One of
    the bees Hegel had in his bonnet was the fad (as he saw it) for
    wanting children to "think for themselves". Hegel thought this was
    liberal silliness. What passage of Hegel gave you this impression,
    Greg?


    Andy
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    *Andy Blunden*
    http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>


    Greg Thompson wrote:

        Andy,

        I fear that you are going to discover that I'm really a one
        trick pony...

        I read Bakhtin's notion of "consummation" as being inflected
        by Hegel's concept of recognition (it isn't exactly the same
        but the parallels are striking - one is consummated by the
        gaze of the other).
        And I think the Hegel's theory of subjectivity is
        fundamentally contrary to the childist theory of subjectivity
        which is more Kantian to my mind (I fear that may take a lot
        of explaining, but I'll leave it at that for now).

        I'd love to hear more from David about what he thinks the
        consequences are of taking on a childist approach. What is
        lost in that approach? And similarly, what is gained by taking
        a more Vygotskian approach?
        -greg


        On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 2:10 AM, Andy Blunden
        <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:

            why do you say "pace Hegel" Greg?

            andy
------------------------------------------------------------------------
            *Andy Blunden*
            http://home.mira.net/~andy/
        <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>



            Greg Thompson wrote:

                David,
                Yes, you caught what I was saying in your
        parenthetical. My
                point was that
                Vera nicely lays out and critiques the dominant view of
                creativity - i.e.
                the one where creativity is anti-social.

                And I'd add that in my reading of Bakhtin, I have
        difficulty
                imagining him
                as a childist, not because of his disdain for children (a
                topic of which I
                had no knowledge prior to your post), but because I
        see him as
                drawing on a
                different understanding of human subjectivity - one
        that draws
                from a
                tradition that is not about the intrinsic flowering of the
                individual but
                rather is about the imbricated emergence of an
        individual who
                is shot
                through / consummated by others. (pace Hegel, imho).

                -greg



Status: O