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Re: [xmca] Luria - New Vodka Old Bottle PDF

Hi Larry,

I'm just about to start a graduate course in which we will be reading, once again, Thought and Language in detail, so I'll probably be returning here to seek guidance about those difficult chapters on sense and meaning.

But not to get too far from the initial topic of this thread, I've found very helpful the writing of neuroscientist Joaquín Fuster. A few months ago Francine summarized some parallels between Fuster and LSV on self-regulation. Relevant to the context here Fuster views the brain as organized as a hierarchical series of levels of what he calls the perception-action cycle -  very much the unity that you cite from Akhutina. Central to this view is the point that the cycle involves brain-plus-environment.  Perception guides action which changes the environment in ways that are perceived which then....  A single dynamic system.


On Jul 27, 2013, at 9:59 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:

> Martin,
> Your referencing and highlighting the word *external opened up a reverie on
> the contrast between external and internal and *internalization or
> internalizationS*.
> It caused me to pick up Akhutina's article and re-read her historical
> summary of the movement and development of sociohistorical understandings.
> There is an interesting section in this paper on Piaget and Vygotsky which
> highlights possible areas of overlapping and neuroplasticity is an arena or
> living *drama* where this engagement could unfold.
> However, I wanted to share a section of Akhutina's article which returned
> me to your attempts at clarity of the contrasts of *meaning* and *sense* as
> explored within neuroplasticity and linking Vygotsky and Luria.
> I will put in capitals the words I want to emphasize as leading to
> further clarity on this topic. The concept *sense* develops as the KEY or
> radical [returning to the root] concept I am highlighting.
> Akhutina wrote:
> "Analyses per units explored the understanding of cell and affects and how
> cells will LEAD US to affect.
> In a living DRAMA of verbal thinking the meaning of a word CHANGES TO one
> of its senses. Sense AS a unit of the dynamic whole, carries in ITSELF [not
> external-larry] - in a HIDDEN form - the PRECEDING MOTIVE, THOUGHT
> PROCESSES AND THE NEXT PHASES of the process LEADING FROM thought to word.
> Sense, as a unit of VERBAL DRAMA, emotionally [i.e. affect-MOTIVE] colors
> both the PERCEPTION of the interlocuter's word AND the response to it, that
> is a meaningful word AS A MICROCOSM OF human mind is polyphonic
> [dialogical-larry] On the proximity of ideas of L S Vygotsky and M M
> Bahktin see Akhutin [another article referenced - larry]
> Thus sense REPRRESENTS the unit of AFFECT, PERCEPTION, AND ACTION, all of
> which, in Vygotsky's opinion, were characteristic of ANY ACT of behavior in
> animal or man. Vygotsky spoke of this in his manuscript *Early Childhood*
> in which he emphasized the holistic UNITY of perception and action
> CONNECTED THROUGH AFFECT and contrasted it to a reflex arc and ring. The
> COMPONENTS of this triad CORRESPOND to three functional blocks of the
> brain, which were identified by Luria decades later."
> Martin, your drawing my attention to the word *external* returned me to
> reverie on internal/external and back to *sense* and its triad moving
> I found this key helpful to continue the dialogue.
> Thank you
> Larry
> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 1:58 PM, Martin John Packer <mpacker@uniandes.edu.co
>> wrote:
>> What a pity he added "external"!  What are my material living conditions
>> 'external' to? My brain? My mind? My consciousness? Surely to none of
>> these. The material condition of my brain is presumably one of the
>> conditions of my (social) life. Hit me in the head with a large rock and
>> see if that doesn't make a difference to my behavior!  :)
>> Martin
>> On Jul 26, 2013, at 11:54 AM, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> And not to the Luria book yet, but here is a nice quote from Luria I just
>>> came across while working on another paper:
>>> "We should not look for the explanation of behavior in the depths of the
>>> brain or the soul but in th eexternal living conditions of persons and
>> most
>>> of all in the external conditions of their societal life, in their
>>> social-historical forms of existence." (Luria 1979, p. 23).
>>> Wise words from the founder of neuroscience.
>>> -greg
>>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 8:00 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>>> And this is one of the principles of "Romantic Science." I'll dig up the
>>>> quote from  Goethe, but he was insistent, as I recall, that science
>> needed
>>>> to be opened up so that it could be practised by anyone without the use
>> of
>>>> either expensive equipment of elaborate mathematical apparatus, so that
>>>> science could become an integral part of general social practice, rather
>>>> than the esoteric knowledge of an elite (which is precisely what
>>>> neuroscience has become!).
>>>> Andy
>>>> mike cole wrote:
>>>>> It can be used by anyone with enough knowledge of the sources of the
>>>>> equinamity to be selective in the appropriate way.
>>>>> Mike
>>>>> On Thursday, July 25, 2013, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>>>   Well, I was hoping for a little more discussion about the
>>>>>   "combined motor method" and "method of dual stimulation" as
>>>>>   *models* and/or *units of analysis*, but those are my personal
>>>>>   topics of interest. Also of interest to me is that this guy,
>>>>>   Luria, the founder of modern neuropsychology did not investigate
>>>>>   the brain by poking electrodes into the gray matter or using
>>>>>   imaging machines, but directly by means available to the human
>>>>>   senses investigated action, the unity of thinking and behaviour,
>>>>>   by, as you say Mike, disrupting that unity, using again, methods
>>>>>   perfectly accessible to ordinary understanding and perception.
>>>>>   This is in line, for me, with his warning that "least of all does
>>>>>   he attempt to deduce the laws of hiugher activity from simple
>>>>>   neurodynamical processes." No, he had to intervene in behaviour
>>>>>   and observe the results. The idea of temporarily disrupting a
>>>>>   person's equanimity and control over their behaviour, so as to
>>>>>   cause them to unwittingly betray what is on their mind is
>>>>>   something which can be of use to anyone, even those without
>>>>>   expensive electronic equipment or even old brass instruments.
>>>>>   Andy
>>>>>   mike cole wrote:
>>>>>       I am away from home and this next week will not be a good time
>>>>>       for serious
>>>>>       responses.
>>>>>       I clearly have lots of views on inter-disciplines and history
>>>>>       of the
>>>>>       development of those we have. Its GREAT having Charles B back
>>>>>       in the
>>>>>       discussion after a long vacation and to great effect.
>>>>>       BUT
>>>>>       I think the Luria book is interesting and darned if most
>>>>>       xmca-ites did not
>>>>>       jump straight on the need for CHAT folks (at least!) to focus
>>>>>       on that
>>>>>       general issue and ignore the luria book and its key ideas!
>>>>>       Like DARN!
>>>>>       The combined motor method, subject to abuse like all of
>>>>>       science, is to me
>>>>>       a brilliant way to delve into the problem of knowing other
>>>>>       minds and it is
>>>>>       not irrelevant that Freud and Jung were up there on ARL's
>>>>>       reading list
>>>>>       a century ago.,.. and address in the book! It was
>>>>>       psychiatrists who were
>>>>>       central to getting it published (look at a copy). It has been
>>>>>       re-invented
>>>>>       many times during my professional career with zero recognition
>>>>>       of the
>>>>>       principle involved: the selective discoordination of voluntary
>>>>>       behavior.
>>>>>       The idea of functional barrier?
>>>>>       The treatment of quasi-motives and Lewin? (and were'nt we
>>>>>       interested in
>>>>>       Lewin once of twice within living memory "here""?).
>>>>>       Mike-gone-fishing
>>>>>       PS- For one example of a way to bring social sciences,
>>>>>       philosophy, history,
>>>>>       the anthropology, sociology, etc together check out the
>>>>>       curriculum at
>>>>>       communication.ucsd.edu <http://communication.ucsd.edu**>. Now
>>>>>       who would of thought up something like
>>>>>       that??  :-)
>>>>>       science as practiced by not-only-Ed these days
>>>>>       On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Larry Purss
>>>>>       <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>           Charles, Greg
>>>>>           Thank you for this emerging topic and theme of
>>>>>           interdisciplinary
>>>>>           possibilities.
>>>>>           Charles, has there been an *historical effect* of your
>>>>>           writing this article
>>>>>           on the journal *Psychiatry*.
>>>>>           The emergence of *family systems therapy* was strongly
>>>>>           influenced by the
>>>>>           William Alanson White institute [for example Salvador
>>>>>           Minuchin studied
>>>>>           there.
>>>>>           Psychoanalysis is also impacted through *interpersonal
>>>>>           psychiatry*  in its
>>>>>           relational turn.
>>>>>           A central motif emerging within this tradition is the
>>>>>           understanding of
>>>>>           *anxiety* [as POSSIBLE or anticipated stress].
>>>>>           A central question becomes, "How do I [or we] make
>>>>>           ourselves safe?"
>>>>>           How central is this question concerning *anxiety* as a
>>>>>           factor that
>>>>>           motivates actions? I often ask this question when
>>>>>           exploring communicative
>>>>>           praxis or pragmatic understandings. Many of the examples
>>>>>           in the 12 issues
>>>>>           of the journal explored are exploring the possibility of
>>>>>           [or avoidance of]
>>>>>           perceived anxiety.
>>>>>           Fascinating topic.
>>>>>           Thanks,
>>>>>           Larry
>>>>>           On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 10:59 AM, Charles Bazerman <
>>>>>           bazerman@education.ucsb.edu> wrote:
>>>>>               Thanks for the Group Processes reference.  I will have
>>>>>               to wait until
>>>>>           after
>>>>>               travels this summer to get a hard copy, as the ecopy
>>>>>               seems to be locked
>>>>>               down.
>>>>>               Peirce, I agree makes an important move by recognizing
>>>>>               the importance of
>>>>>               interpretation, but despite looking at his works a
>>>>>               number of times on the
>>>>>               recommendation of people I trust, I find he does not
>>>>>               get us far enough.
>>>>>                This is what I have to say about him in my soon to be
>>>>>               released volume A
>>>>>               Theory of Literate Action.
>>>>>               best,
>>>>>               Chuck
>>>>>               Peirce's semiotics with interpretation
>>>>>                       Charles Peirce, among the founding generation
>>>>>               of pragmatists,
>>>>>               looked most directly at language and semiotics, making
>>>>>               some first steps
>>>>>               towards articulating the implications of a pragmatist
>>>>>               view for language
>>>>>           and
>>>>>               language use. Most importantly, he recognized a major
>>>>>               role for the
>>>>>               interpreting speaker and interpreting hearer in the
>>>>>               meanings conveyed by
>>>>>               communication, rather than assuming meaning was
>>>>>               immanent in an abstracted
>>>>>               language system (Peirce, 1958). It is people who
>>>>>               attach meanings to
>>>>>               experienced worlds and issues of concern. This
>>>>>               recognition of the
>>>>>               importance of interpretive processes might lead to an
>>>>>               investigation of
>>>>>           how
>>>>>               differences in individuals and groups of individuals
>>>>>               might influence the
>>>> --
>>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>>>> ------------
>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>>>> http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<
>> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
>>> --
>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>> Visiting Assistant Professor
>>> Department of Anthropology
>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>> Brigham Young University
>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson