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Re: VS: [xmca] Finland

I'd be interested to know what proportion of school teachers you
normally see at these events. In my experience, it's a lot easier for
university staff to get funding than school staff, certainly in the UK.

Meanwhile back in the UK, we have solved the problem of meaningful
assessment of ability. The latest plan is that every child is going to
be ranked against their peers at age 11. Thus, primary education will be
transformed and we will sail past the likes of Finland and South Korea
in global rankings. Oh, grim.


On 17/07/2013 06:44, Larry Purss wrote:
This question of *respect* is an interesting topic.
I have read that it is more difficult in Finland to become a teacher than a
doctor? Is this true.?
That difference if true would indicate a significant difference in the
cultural-historical  value and virtue of becoming a teacher.
I also noticed at the AREA conference in Vancouver that very few public
school teachers were in attendance. It seemed that many university
professors were exploring topics and themes ABOUT teaching in public
schools but few actual public school teachers were participating or leading
I wonder if in Finland more public school teachers would be in attendance
at a similar conference?
The comment that teachers in North America focus on *empirical* ways of
understanding and have little understanding of the genesis of
*theoretical* ways of constructing knowledge also seems relevant.
I am circling around this topic of *teacher respect* and how central
*education* is in comparison to medicine, psychology, etc.
It seems education in Finland is seen as a complex and valuable and
recognized profession, [with autonomy and trust of the participants]
whereas in North America teaching is less valued and lumped in with other
public sector  types of employment [which are devalued as dependent on
private enterprise]

Andy has posted a very interesting article which historically critiques the
notion of *dependency*.
As he mentions [referencing Nancy Fraser] the understanding of *dependency*
exists in many different REGISTERS.
I wonder if education and public school teaching are not as respected as
medicine, law, psychology, etc. because public school teachers  are being
registered as dependent positions, dependent on private enterprise.

What I appreciate within this listserv is the recognition that education
and learning receive as complex developmental practices.

On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 12:35 PM, <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> wrote:

But what you say Andrew would require that we respect teachers - something
that much of this country seems hard pressed to do, consider all the uproar
around teachers salaries. Certainly some (much?) stems from strong
anti-union sentiment,

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 16, 2013, at 9:44 AM, Andrew Babson <ababson@umich.edu> wrote:

I thought I would follow up on this, especially re Peter's post just
earlier about Bill Gates' influence on education "reform". It also seems
from Bruce's original post that I may have missed an earlier discussion
about Finnish society.

Yesterday in class, we got into *Finnish Lessons, *and according to the
book it's clear that the Finnish model is very different than what Gates
and his ilk are building. For one, testing and assessment are put in
proper perspective. Because teachers are taught to consider themselves as
experts and researchers of their own profession, data are welcomed but
scrutinized and used fittingly. In other words, the data serves them and
their students, not the other way around--- a very Deweyan approach.
Teachers are given the autonomy and the professional respect to do this,
and they are not pitted against each other, which contributes to mutual
trust. They seem to be comfortable sharing knowledge with and learning
their colleagues.

We can then ask why this approach and that of Gates and the "global
education reform movement (GERM)", as Sahlberg calls it, diverge so
drastically. Why not take a hint from Finnish educators and students, who
have established a long-term record of success?

Among many reasons for this divergence, it needs to be highlighted that
Finnish model is not easily or quickly replicable, let alone measurable.
is a cultural artifact, an outgrowth of shared values and practices,
among them cooperation, respect, and trust. To further illustrate: one of
my students worked directly for Arne Duncan at the DOE for three years,
said that although the Finnish model was explored, Duncan et al.
that only classroom-based pedagogical procedures could be replicated
Now, you can guess how skeptical we in this newsgroup might be about that
approach, considering how much education happens outside of the classroom
in Finland, and the above point that you can't import, a la carte,
sociocultural dynamics involved in classroom pedagogy.

So, the Gates/GERM approach begs us to wonder what if about all of this
money spent on "reform". What if it had been spent on building and
implementing a 30 year plan to 1) transform the status of teachers into
experts who collaborate with other experts, and 2) apply the Vygotskian
principle of balancing autonomy and support to the entire system? Again,
it's not like I think we here in the USA don't have it in us to learn
the Finns (after all, as Sahlberg points out, they took a lot inspiration
from US educational research and practice). Not to be simplistic, but I
still think it mostly goes back, as I mentioned before, to political
Although habits and dispositions (and by extension, "cultures") are hard
change, they can be changed with enough motivation and time.


On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 8:27 PM, Andrew Babson <ababson@umich.edu> wrote:

Hi XMCA'ers, and thanks Bruce for bringing up this topic. I assigned
Finnish Lessons for one of my classes, and we just started this past
so your post is timely. Once we get into the book, I'll share some
thoughts in this thread. Rauno, I appreciate your historical insights on
Finland (and Leif, interesting to know about trends in Sweden).

It's galling to realize that the major thing, really, standing in the
of solving so many social problems in democracies is political
not because we don't know what to do, or that we don't have the money
to do
it, but because advocacy hasn't been organized or passionate enough to
it happen. It's good to see positive examples like Finland's education
turnaround, generations in the making.


Andrew Babson, Ph.D.
Lecturer, Graduate School of Education
University of Pennsylvania

On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 3:50 AM, Leif Strandberg <
leifstrandberg.ab@telia.com> wrote:

Good Luck Finland...

don't do what we have done... a massive support to private schools
("private" is an euphemism... for s.c. risk capitalism)

and the result is segregation and bad quality

2 jul 2013 kl. 18.49 skrev Rauno Huttunen:

Pasi Sahlberg is respected educational scientist in Finland. He knows
what he is talking about.

In 50th and 60th there was big debate in Finland concerning grand
reform. Existing school system was reproducing unequality. Finally
called "Maaseudun puolue" (Agrarian Party) agreed to work together
social democrats and communists in order to plan and execute of a
school reform which would guarantee every child equal opportunities in
educational system. Right wing parties gave heavy resistance but
reform was executed.

Actually I am personally perfect example of this new Finnish
school system. I have working class background and my school success
lower grades was poor. In old school system I would have never make
it to
"Lyseo" (high school/gymansium/college) and university. I had only
distant relatives who make it to Lyseo and only one who make it to

Now we have to fight for our school system and not let private schools
run over the well working public school system.

Rauno Huttunen

Lähettäjä: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
k&#228;ytt&#228;j&#228;n Bruce Robinson [bruce@dolphy.eclipse.co.uk]
Lähetetty: 2. heinäkuuta 2013 19:16
Vastaanottaja: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
Aihe: [xmca] Finland

Hello xmcaers,

Following the recent discussion on Finnish culture, you might be
interested in this interview about the Finnish education system and
it is so successful from today's Guardian. There's some interesting
speculation about the relationship between relative equality and the
education system.

Bruce R
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