RE: [xmca] self-regulation

[larry smolucha <lsmolucha@hotmail.com>]

Message from Francine:
Both Greg and I have overlooked something that would have beenobvious to Vygotsky. Deaf does not necessarily mean mute -deaf people can acquire speech (isn't that what Alexander Graham Bellwas focused on teaching?) Vygotsky is focused on the use of speech asa motor function (not on just hearing  someone else's spoken language).
Also, Vygotsky's focus was on the function (Mental Functions) not linguistic structure(as in Chomsky).Greg made a good point when he said that spoken language and the written word can have its origin in resemblance (phonetically Mama is believed by some to have originated in the smacking sounds of the infant when breastfeeding - 1920'swrittings of psychoanalyst Sabina Spielrein) and (as a visual image the letter 'm' suggeststhe two maternal breasts). At a subliminal level the word mama can still be triggeringthese depth psychological meanings (McDonald's Golden Arches).
But there is an entire research literature (that figures prominent psychologists likeJerome Bruner) that explores how conceptual thought develops from such proto-symbols.Even if you have a symbol (or sign in Piaget's terminology) that has no resemblanceat all to the referent, it does not mean it is functioning to designate a 'concept' ratherthat an action, event, or object. Let's take the infant's use of  'wawa'  to designatewater -  the concept of water (whether at a phenomenological level or scientific level)is an abstraction, saying wawa or water simply as a label for water is only a step in thedevelopment of the concept of water (which is an historical-cultural construct).


> Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 08:04:05 -0600
> Subject: Re: [xmca] self-regulation
> From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> 
> Francine,
> That's some serious retrofitting (and doing all kinds of cultural knowledge
> to make it work!). Did you really think of this before you saw the signs
> for mom and dad?
> We could make the same ridiculous argument about the sound of the words
> "mom" and "dad".
> Please take a look at the full range of signs and tell me if you'd like to
> continue with this.
> I'm off to AERA, but would be happy to pick this up with more gusto when I
> get back.
> -greg
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 6:28 AM, larry smolucha <lsmolucha@hotmail.com>wrote:
> 
> > Mom feeds the child and Dad is the head of the family.
> >
> > > Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 00:53:37 -0600
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] self-regulation
> > > From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
> > > Francine,
> > >
> > > Leaving the brain imaging aside, take a quick look at this website and
> > > let's just start with the simple signs for "mom" and for "dad".
> > > Any guesses as to how you would represent these in sign language.
> > >
> > > [Pause while the audience thinks up how to iconically represent "mom".
> > But
> > > please, keep it clean, this is a family program!].
> > >
> > > http://lifeprint.com/asl101/pages-signs/m/mom.htm
> > >
> > > Okay, so did you think of putting your hand with fingers outstretched as
> > in
> > > showing the number five and touching your thumb to your chin?
> > >
> > > So, how is this is any more analogically (iconically) linked to the
> > > referent to which it extends than are the sounds "m" "ah" "m"?*
> > >
> > > And for "dad"?
> > >
> > > Put the same five fingers out and touch your thumb to your forehead.
> > >
> > > If these are not analogical in regard to their referent (as the seem to
> > me
> > > not to be), then wouldn't you agree that they are (or at least could be)
> > > the basis for self-regulation of conceptual thought?
> > >
> > > And I would add that this view of sign language as purely
> > indexical/iconic
> > > (analogical in your phrasing) is as common as it is wrong. I have seen
> > top
> > > scholars of communication put forth these views in national meetings.
> > Very
> > > sad because of the images it perpetuates about deaf people.
> > >
> > > Mike's UCSD colleague Carol Padden has done some wonderful work pointing
> > > out these ignorances.
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Padden
> > >
> > > And as a deaf scholar who won a Genius grant, I would suspect that Carol
> > > must have been doing some self-regulation of conceptual thought along the
> > > way.
> > >
> > > Agreed?
> > > -greg
> > >
> > > *and note that philologists before Saussure used to argue that all words
> > > had an iconic character to them. Interesting that Vygotsky was wise
> > enough
> > > to see past this absurd view of language (another reason why I liken
> > > Vygotsky to Saussure).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 11:46 PM, larry smolucha <lsmolucha@hotmail.com
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > Greg,
> > > > Even if a gesture or pictorial image that has no resemblance to
> > > > thereferent can be used, I think that words that derive from spoken
> > > > language have a unique role in the development of self-regulation. I
> > think
> > > > this is what Vygotsky was saying in 1928 in his paper The Genetic
> > Roots of
> > > > Thought and Speech (particularly pages 82 and 88 inKozulin's
> > translation in
> > > > Thought and Language). I have nothing personally invested inbeing right
> > > > about this, so I welcome counter-arguments.
> > > > It seems the definition of self-regulation needs clarification -
> > Vygotsky
> > > > was focusing on self-regulation of conceptual thought. I also wonder
> > what
> > > > brain imaging technology would show about the development of executive
> > > > function in the prefrontal cortices in deaf people. I think it has
> > been a
> > > > mistake for neurologists to refer to the prefrontal cortex as if the
> > left
> > > > and right prefrontal cortices acted in unity.  There must be different
> > > > self-regulatory systems operating from the left prefrontal cortex
> > (speech)
> > > > and perhaps some other type of non-verbal self-regulation operates
> > from the
> > > > right prefrontal cortex.This other type of non-verbal self-regulation
> > could
> > > > be left prefrontal in the deaf. Brain imaging techniques like the
> > > > functional MRI could provide a breakthrough. Since Vygotsky was
> > focused on
> > > > the ability to self-regulate conceptual thought we can expect that
> > > > self-regulation of sensori-motor functions is going involve the
> > development
> > > > of a different neurological system.
> > > > Also there are bound to be differences between people who have been
> > deaf
> > > > since birth and people who lost their hearing after having learned
> > even a
> > > > little speech (The infant Helen Keller was alreadysaying a few words
> > > > including the word water before she lost her hearing).
> > > > One of my closest friends is an 83 year old woman who has been deaf
> > > > sinceage 4 (German Measles). I have seen her interact with other
> > people who
> > > > are deafand some of the signs they use are analogical in regard to the
> > > > referent.For example, spaghetti (the thumbs and index fingers of both
> > hands
> > > > touch and thenmove away from each other in a straight line as if
> > stretching
> > > > a piece of spaghetti)and dog is represented by the two hands patting
> > the
> > > > leg together as if the paws of a dog trying to get attention). But at
> > other
> > > > times, words are spelled out using hand signs for alphabet letters
> > that do
> > > > not look like the written form of the alphabet letter. But then
> > theseare
> > > > words that derived from spoken language even if the vocalizations are
> > not
> > > > being made.
> > > > I will look for the research on Nicaraguan Sign Language.
> > > > > Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 00:15:52 -0600
> > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] self-regulation
> > > > > From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >
> > > > > Francine,
> > > > > Do you think that Vygotsky was right in positing that:
> > > > > "the spoken word has a unique function in self-regulation because it
> > can
> > > > be
> > > > > totally separate from the referent, whereas gestures and
> > iconic-pictorial
> > > > > illustrations bear some element of resemblance."
> > > > > Most particularly, do you think that ASL is purely gestural and
> > > > > iconic-pictorial?
> > > > > Makes me wonder what kind of sign language Vygotsky would have been
> > > > > studying.
> > > > > Home sign?
> > > > > Maria Coppolla (sp?), among others, has done some really great work
> > on
> > > > > Nicaraguan Sign Language. The upshot of it is that when sign language
> > > > > develops in a community, signs develop a fully *symbolic* capacity
> > (cf.
> > > > > Peirce on "symbol") that does this work of being totally separate
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > referent ("arbitrary", we might say, to use Saussurean terminology).
> > > > >
> > > > > But, importantly, you only get this when you have a numerous and
> > dense
> > > > > community of deaf people who can develop such arbitrary signs (and
> > this
> > > > is
> > > > > a fascinating population to think about language genesis with! And
> > guess
> > > > > where these numerous and dense communities have typically been found:
> > > > > Schools!). Without a significantly large and dense community of deaf
> > > > > people, deaf are stuck making up signs for hearing people who rely
> > too
> > > > > heavily on spoken word to be able to imagine that one can do the same
> > > > thing
> > > > > with gestures.
> > > > >
> > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > -greg
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 1:05 PM, larry smolucha <
> > lsmolucha@hotmail.com
> > > > >wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Message from Francine:
> > > > > > Larry,
> > > > > > You might find something useful in a 1992 book edited by Diaz and
> > > > > > Berktitled Private Speech (Erlbaum) - I wrote Chapter 5 on the
> > Social
> > > > > > Originsof Private Speech in pretend Play.
> > > > > > Bodrova and Leong's Tools of the Mind Preschools have been
> > recocognized
> > > > > > fortheir success in using verbally guided pretend play to develop
> > > > > > self-regulation.They are currently doing a joint research project
> > with
> > > > > > University of Chicago researchers.Adele Diamond, a
> > neuropsychologist,
> > > > has
> > > > > > documented neurological correlatesas self-regulation developed in
> > Tool
> > > > of
> > > > > > the Mind Preschoolers.
> > > > > > In regard to the use of gesture for self-regulation as early as
> > > > infancy:A
> > > > > > few years ago I was giving my usual lecture on how Vygotsky
> > > > > > transitionedfrom teaching the deaf to researching the role of
> > speech in
> > > > > > self-regulation.I said that Vygotsky realized that the teaching of
> > sign
> > > > > > language to the deafwas only done to teach communication with
> > others,
> > > > but
> > > > > > that speech in the hearinghad two functions 'communication and
> > > > > > self-regulation.' A related question is how tohelp the deaf to use
> > sign
> > > > > > language for self-regulation. Well, there happended to bea deaf
> > woman
> > > > in
> > > > > > the class with another woman who would sign my lectures to her. It
> > was
> > > > a
> > > > > > moment of truth, I turned to them and asked if the deaf woman ever
> > > > signs to
> > > > > > herself to direct her own thoughts - her answer was yes, even in
> > her
> > > > dreams.
> > > > > > Never-the-less, Vygotsky is quite clear that the spoken word has a
> > > > unique
> > > > > > functionin self-regulation because it can be totally separate from
> > the
> > > > > > referent, whereasgestures and iconic-pictorial illustrations bear
> > some
> > > > > > element of resemblance.
> > > > > > In regard to the Vancouver school's goal of teaching
> > self-regulatory
> > > > > > private speech,I can think of simple ways to help the teachers how
> > to
> > > > > >  identify the types of self-regulatoryspeech that students at
> > different
> > > > > > grade levels need  per subject area. [I just revieweda journal
> > article
> > > > from
> > > > > > the Zoology department at a University in New Zealand thatwas
> > looking
> > > > at
> > > > > > verbal self-regulation in graduate students.]
> > > > > > Meichenbaum's  work on Cognitive-Behavioral Modification  was
> > inspred
> > > > by
> > > > > > Vygotskyand Luria's writings, so basic steps in using private
> > speech to
> > > > > > focus attentioncan be found in that area of research and therapy
> > > > (beginning
> > > > > > in the 1960's).
> > > > > > I get the sense that Vygotskian researchers have become estranged
> > from
> > > > one
> > > > > > another(and from the associated research literatures) because of
> > > > artificial
> > > > > > theoretical boundariesthat have been drawn.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:06:55 -0700
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: RES: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj]
> > analysis".
> > > > Can
> > > > > > you  help me?
> > > > > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com
> > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Francine
> > > > > > > Thanks for the reference to Winsler's edited book, "Private
> > Speech,
> > > > > > > Executive Function".
> > > > > > > I have read the excerpt on Google books and two topics were
> > > > intriguing.
> > > > > > > The notion of *self-reflection* in 12 month old infants who were
> > > > > > privately
> > > > > > > self-regulating THROUGH gesture previously modeled by adults.
> > > > > > > The 2nd intriguing question is that literature may profoundly
> > > > influence
> > > > > > > (constitute) a distinct TYPE of self-regulation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would appreciate if you could email some relevant literature on
> > > > > > > developing self regulation through private speech.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you send to
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > lplarry@live.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would be grateful.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Francine, the concept of *self-regulation* and *social-emotional
> > > > > > learning*
> > > > > > > is becoming a central focus in public schooling and in the
> > Vancouver
> > > > > > school
> > > > > > > system has been highlighted as a central goal that all teachers
> > must
> > > > > > > *teach*.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > THIS topic of *private speech* I see as a fulcrum or pivot around
> > > > which
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > enter dialogue at the school level.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for your generous offer.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Larry
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 9:05 AM, larry smolucha <
> > > > lsmolucha@hotmail.com
> > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Message from Francine,
> > > > > > > > We had to surrender copyright to the publisher,which is the
> > case
> > > > for
> > > > > > most
> > > > > > > > academic books and journals.Since the book was just published,
> > I
> > > > do not
> > > > > > > > think they would let the paperbe posted on-line just yet.
> > > > > > > > But if you send me  your private e-mail address, I can e-mail
> > > > copies of
> > > > > > > > similarpapers.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > From: jbmartin@sercomtel.com.br
> > > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > Subject: RES: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj]
> > analysis".
> > > > Can
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > >      help    me?
> > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 08:05:56 -0300
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Do you can send the paper Smolucha, L. and Smolucha, F.
> > (2012)
> > > > > > Vygotsky's
> > > > > > > > > Theory of Creativity inContemporary Perspectives on Research
> > in
> > > > > > > > Creativity
> > > > > > > > > in Early Childhood Education(Information Age Publishing,
> > > > pp.63-88) to
> > > > > > > > xmca?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Joao
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -----Mensagem original-----
> > > > > > > > > De: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> > > > xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > > > > > Em
> > > > > > > > nome
> > > > > > > > > de larry smolucha
> > > > > > > > > Enviada em: terça-feira, 23 de abril de 2013 07:42
> > > > > > > > > Para: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > > > > > Assunto: RE: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj]
> > analysis".
> > > > Can
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > help
> > > > > > > > > me?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha:
> > > > > > > > > Achilles,
> > > > > > > > > The most direct application of Vygotsky is to observe (and
> > > > document)
> > > > > > > > howthe
> > > > > > > > > verbal guidance of a more knowledgeable person is
> > internalized
> > > > > > assilent
> > > > > > > > > self-guiding inner speech. This is done through discourse
> > > > > > > > analysis.Sometimes
> > > > > > > > > there is an intermediate step where the learner speaks parts
> > of
> > > > > > theverbal
> > > > > > > > > guidance outloud to him(her)self ( Social Speech - Private
> > Speech
> > > > > > -Inner
> > > > > > > > > Speech).[Note Vygotsky used the term egocentric speech
> > instead
> > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > contemporary term private speech]. It would be great to use
> > > > neural
> > > > > > > > imaging
> > > > > > > > > techniques to documenthow the cortical functions of the
> > > > prefrontal
> > > > > > > > cortices
> > > > > > > > > change as the executivefunction emerges as the self-guiding
> > > > speech is
> > > > > > > > > employed and internalized.
> > > > > > > > > Two excellent books that deal with this process are Private
> > > > Speech,
> > > > > > > > > Executive Functioning, and the Development of
> > > > VerbalSelf-Regulation
> > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > Winsler, A,. et. al. ( Cambridge, 2009) The Prefrontal
> > Cortex by
> > > > > > Joaquin
> > > > > > > > > Fuster  (Academic Press, 2009).[Pages 369-371 discuss the
> > > > > > development of
> > > > > > > > > creativity as prefrontal self-regulationof imagination with
> > > > direct
> > > > > > > > reference
> > > > > > > > > to the work of both Vygotsky and Luria. Thisis consistent
> > with my
> > > > > > > > > interpretation of Vygotsky's theory of creativity -
> > > >  seeSmolucha, L.
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > Smolucha, F. (2012) Vygotsky's Theory of Creativity
> > > > inContemporary
> > > > > > > > > Perspectives on Research in Creativity in Early Childhood
> > > > > > > > > Education(Information Age Publishing, pp.63-88)] Hope this
> > was of
> > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > help.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 04:28:38 +0000
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj] analysis".
> > > > Can you
> > > > > > > > help
> > > > > > > > > me?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Greetings for all,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Please, I understand that I have a major methodological
> > > > problem in
> > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > nearest research project: "how to understand human
> > making-sense
> > > > > > through
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > concrete acts of a person's speech?". Along many years I had
> > > > thought
> > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > Vygotsky's claim that "“Semiotic [and/or "semantic" =
> > > > semicheskyj]
> > > > > > > > analysis
> > > > > > > > > is the only adequate method for the study of the systemic and
> > > > > > semantic
> > > > > > > > > structure of consciousness.” (see
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-consciousness.ht
> > > > > > > > > m). But it is not so clear how to proceed "Semiotic/semantic
> > > > > > analysis".
> > > > > > > > > Then, if you pleased, could somebody help me, shining my mind
> > > > about
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > (im)possibilities about somebody really learn *how to do*
> > such
> > > > kind
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > analysis? Here in Brazil, close to me, there is nobody
> > working
> > > > with
> > > > > > > > > something in this direction, then I have no local resources
> > to
> > > > ask
> > > > > > for...
> > > > > > > > > Forgive me about the naive character of the question, but I
> > > > really
> > > > > > want
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > learn about.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thank you very much, once more. Best wishes.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Achilles from Brazil.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > _____
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> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > > > Visiting Assistant Professor
> > > > > Department of Anthropology
> > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > > > > Brigham Young University
> > > > > Provo, UT 84602
> > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > _____
> > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________
> > > > _____
> > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > Visiting Assistant Professor
> > > Department of Anthropology
> > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > > Brigham Young University
> > > Provo, UT 84602
> > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> > > __________________________________________
> > > _____
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> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> > __________________________________________
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> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> Visiting Assistant Professor
> Department of Anthropology
> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> Brigham Young University
> Provo, UT 84602
> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
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