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Re: [xmca] self-regulation



Larry,
What I was pointing to is something quite different from "sedimentation" in
gesture in infancy. Full-fledged sign language is a completely and totally
different thing from children's gesture.

In my post I was pointing out that in a full-fledged sign language (yes,
Language!), the gesture becomes symbolic, no longer tied to its iconic or
indexical features, and thus it has the same formal features of spoken
language in that it does not merely function indexically (as temporal or
spatial collocation - like the Vervet monkeys' predator calls which are
only heard when a predator is present) or icononically (as in onomatopoeia
- "buzzzzz").

To put it in perspective, we could flip Vygotsky's argument and imagine a
Vygotsky of the sign community saying how limited us spoken language folks
are because every word that we use has to "sound like" the thing that it
represents. In parallel fashion to the spoken language Vygotsky, the
sign-language Vygotsky might say: "the signed word has a unique function in
self-regulation because it can be totally separate from the referent,
whereas temporal-spatially collocated and onomatopoetic language always
bear some element of resemblance."

Not true for us, not true for them!
We are functionally more alike than we think...

Or so I would argue...
-greg




On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 10:12 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:

> Greg, Francine,
>
> Your question about *resemblance* of gestures and icons as tied to the
> local situation, whereas words can be beyond the local situation is a way
> of asking the question which Elena Cufferi is exploring.
> Elena referenced Merleau Ponty's work and his concepts of *sedimentation*
> and *spontaneous* in her exploring the *meaning* of gestures.
> Exploring gesture within the deaf community is clearly entering *language*
> and *sedimentation* AS cultural historical and not merely spontaneous.
> Elena's question is much more radical. She is asking if gesture for a 12
> month old can be used for guided/mediated self referencing within the
> cultural historical world as *self* regulation that is extra local, and
> therefore sedimented.
> In other words *Gestures* in their own* essence* have BOTH qualities of
> sedimentation AND qualities of spontaneity.
> Our bodies are *communicating with our *self* and participating within life
> worlds AS sedimented gestures at 12 months and may be primordial for
> developing language with which it shares *resemblance*??
>
> The developmental stage of *private speech* as a visible expression of
> *self* regulation of actions without reference to another person can then
> be interpreted AS another developmental skill  within gestural expressions
> as developing BOTH sedimented and spontaneous *actions* within cultural
> historical worlds?
>
> This then returns us to questions of imaginal play as using *props* or
> *pivots* AS ways of *referencing* events.
> The question of *resemblance* (as structure, as function) within PLAY may
> also be expressing BOTH sedimented (guided, mediated) *self* regulation
> which is analogical (carrying over or carrying through).
>
> This question of *identity* (a equals b) and its relation to *resemblance*
> (as relation) ) is a question I see being asked in the inquiries of other,
> co and self regulation and executive functioning.
>
> Larry
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 11:15 PM, Greg Thompson
> <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Francine,
> > Do you think that Vygotsky was right in positing that:
> > "the spoken word has a unique function in self-regulation because it can
> be
> > totally separate from the referent, whereas gestures and iconic-pictorial
> > illustrations bear some element of resemblance."
> > Most particularly, do you think that ASL is purely gestural and
> > iconic-pictorial?
> > Makes me wonder what kind of sign language Vygotsky would have been
> > studying.
> > Home sign?
> > Maria Coppolla (sp?), among others, has done some really great work on
> > Nicaraguan Sign Language. The upshot of it is that when sign language
> > develops in a community, signs develop a fully *symbolic* capacity (cf.
> > Peirce on "symbol") that does this work of being totally separate from
> the
> > referent ("arbitrary", we might say, to use Saussurean terminology).
> >
> > But, importantly, you only get this when you have a numerous and dense
> > community of deaf people who can develop such arbitrary signs (and this
> is
> > a fascinating population to think about language genesis with! And guess
> > where these numerous and dense communities have typically been found:
> > Schools!). Without a significantly large and dense community of deaf
> > people, deaf are stuck making up signs for hearing people who rely too
> > heavily on spoken word to be able to imagine that one can do the same
> thing
> > with gestures.
> >
> > What do you think?
> > -greg
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 1:05 PM, larry smolucha <lsmolucha@hotmail.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Message from Francine:
> > > Larry,
> > > You might find something useful in a 1992 book edited by Diaz and
> > > Berktitled Private Speech (Erlbaum) - I wrote Chapter 5 on the Social
> > > Originsof Private Speech in pretend Play.
> > > Bodrova and Leong's Tools of the Mind Preschools have been recocognized
> > > fortheir success in using verbally guided pretend play to develop
> > > self-regulation.They are currently doing a joint research project with
> > > University of Chicago researchers.Adele Diamond, a neuropsychologist,
> has
> > > documented neurological correlatesas self-regulation developed in Tool
> of
> > > the Mind Preschoolers.
> > > In regard to the use of gesture for self-regulation as early as
> infancy:A
> > > few years ago I was giving my usual lecture on how Vygotsky
> > > transitionedfrom teaching the deaf to researching the role of speech in
> > > self-regulation.I said that Vygotsky realized that the teaching of sign
> > > language to the deafwas only done to teach communication with others,
> but
> > > that speech in the hearinghad two functions 'communication and
> > > self-regulation.' A related question is how tohelp the deaf to use sign
> > > language for self-regulation. Well, there happended to bea deaf woman
> in
> > > the class with another woman who would sign my lectures to her. It was
> a
> > > moment of truth, I turned to them and asked if the deaf woman ever
> signs
> > to
> > > herself to direct her own thoughts - her answer was yes, even in her
> > dreams.
> > > Never-the-less, Vygotsky is quite clear that the spoken word has a
> unique
> > > functionin self-regulation because it can be totally separate from the
> > > referent, whereasgestures and iconic-pictorial illustrations bear some
> > > element of resemblance.
> > > In regard to the Vancouver school's goal of teaching self-regulatory
> > > private speech,I can think of simple ways to help the teachers how to
> > >  identify the types of self-regulatoryspeech that students at different
> > > grade levels need  per subject area. [I just revieweda journal article
> > from
> > > the Zoology department at a University in New Zealand thatwas looking
> at
> > > verbal self-regulation in graduate students.]
> > > Meichenbaum's  work on Cognitive-Behavioral Modification  was inspred
> by
> > > Vygotskyand Luria's writings, so basic steps in using private speech to
> > > focus attentioncan be found in that area of research and therapy
> > (beginning
> > > in the 1960's).
> > > I get the sense that Vygotskian researchers have become estranged from
> > one
> > > another(and from the associated research literatures) because of
> > artificial
> > > theoretical boundariesthat have been drawn.
> > >
> > > > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:06:55 -0700
> > > > Subject: Re: RES: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj] analysis".
> > Can
> > > you  help me?
> > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com
> > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >
> > > > Hi Francine
> > > > Thanks for the reference to Winsler's edited book, "Private Speech,
> > > > Executive Function".
> > > > I have read the excerpt on Google books and two topics were
> intriguing.
> > > > The notion of *self-reflection* in 12 month old infants who were
> > > privately
> > > > self-regulating THROUGH gesture previously modeled by adults.
> > > > The 2nd intriguing question is that literature may profoundly
> influence
> > > > (constitute) a distinct TYPE of self-regulation.
> > > >
> > > > I would appreciate if you could email some relevant literature on
> > > > developing self regulation through private speech.
> > > >
> > > > If you send to
> > > >
> > > > lplarry@live.com
> > > >
> > > > I would be grateful.
> > > >
> > > > Francine, the concept of *self-regulation* and *social-emotional
> > > learning*
> > > > is becoming a central focus in public schooling and in the Vancouver
> > > school
> > > > system has been highlighted as a central goal that all teachers must
> > > > *teach*.
> > > >
> > > > THIS topic of *private speech* I see as a fulcrum or pivot around
> which
> > > to
> > > > enter dialogue at the school level.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for your generous offer.
> > > >
> > > > Larry
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 9:05 AM, larry smolucha <
> lsmolucha@hotmail.com
> > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Message from Francine,
> > > > > We had to surrender copyright to the publisher,which is the case
> for
> > > most
> > > > > academic books and journals.Since the book was just published, I do
> > not
> > > > > think they would let the paperbe posted on-line just yet.
> > > > > But if you send me  your private e-mail address, I can e-mail
> copies
> > of
> > > > > similarpapers.
> > > > >
> > > > > > From: jbmartin@sercomtel.com.br
> > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > Subject: RES: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj] analysis".
> > Can
> > > you
> > > > >      help    me?
> > > > > > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 08:05:56 -0300
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do you can send the paper Smolucha, L. and Smolucha, F. (2012)
> > > Vygotsky's
> > > > > > Theory of Creativity inContemporary Perspectives on Research in
> > > > > Creativity
> > > > > > in Early Childhood Education(Information Age Publishing,
> pp.63-88)
> > to
> > > > > xmca?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Joao
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Mensagem original-----
> > > > > > De: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> > xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > > Em
> > > > > nome
> > > > > > de larry smolucha
> > > > > > Enviada em: terça-feira, 23 de abril de 2013 07:42
> > > > > > Para: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > > Assunto: RE: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj] analysis".
> Can
> > > you
> > > > > help
> > > > > > me?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha:
> > > > > > Achilles,
> > > > > > The most direct application of Vygotsky is to observe (and
> > document)
> > > > > howthe
> > > > > > verbal guidance of a more knowledgeable person is internalized
> > > assilent
> > > > > > self-guiding inner speech. This is done through discourse
> > > > > analysis.Sometimes
> > > > > > there is an intermediate step where the learner speaks parts of
> > > theverbal
> > > > > > guidance outloud to him(her)self ( Social Speech - Private Speech
> > > -Inner
> > > > > > Speech).[Note Vygotsky used the term egocentric speech instead of
> > the
> > > > > > contemporary term private speech]. It would be great to use
> neural
> > > > > imaging
> > > > > > techniques to documenthow the cortical functions of the
> prefrontal
> > > > > cortices
> > > > > > change as the executivefunction emerges as the self-guiding
> speech
> > is
> > > > > > employed and internalized.
> > > > > > Two excellent books that deal with this process are Private
> Speech,
> > > > > > Executive Functioning, and the Development of
> VerbalSelf-Regulation
> > > by
> > > > > > Winsler, A,. et. al. ( Cambridge, 2009) The Prefrontal Cortex by
> > > Joaquin
> > > > > > Fuster  (Academic Press, 2009).[Pages 369-371 discuss the
> > > development of
> > > > > > creativity as prefrontal self-regulationof imagination with
> direct
> > > > > reference
> > > > > > to the work of both Vygotsky and Luria. Thisis consistent with my
> > > > > > interpretation of Vygotsky's theory of creativity -  seeSmolucha,
> > L.
> > > and
> > > > > > Smolucha, F. (2012) Vygotsky's Theory of Creativity
> inContemporary
> > > > > > Perspectives on Research in Creativity in Early Childhood
> > > > > > Education(Information Age Publishing, pp.63-88)] Hope this was of
> > > some
> > > > > help.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 04:28:38 +0000
> > > > > > > Subject: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj] analysis". Can
> > you
> > > > > help
> > > > > > me?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Greetings for all,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Please, I understand that I have a major methodological problem
> > in
> > > my
> > > > > > nearest research project: "how to understand human making-sense
> > > through
> > > > > the
> > > > > > concrete acts of a person's speech?". Along many years I had
> > thought
> > > > > about
> > > > > > Vygotsky's claim that "“Semiotic [and/or "semantic" =
> semicheskyj]
> > > > > analysis
> > > > > > is the only adequate method for the study of the systemic and
> > > semantic
> > > > > > structure of consciousness.” (see
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-consciousness.ht
> > > > > > m). But it is not so clear how to proceed "Semiotic/semantic
> > > analysis".
> > > > > > Then, if you pleased, could somebody help me, shining my mind
> about
> > > the
> > > > > > (im)possibilities about somebody really learn *how to do* such
> kind
> > > of
> > > > > > analysis? Here in Brazil, close to me, there is nobody working
> with
> > > > > > something in this direction, then I have no local resources to
> ask
> > > for...
> > > > > > Forgive me about the naive character of the question, but I
> really
> > > want
> > > > > to
> > > > > > learn about.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thank you very much, once more. Best wishes.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Achilles from Brazil.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > __________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > Visiting Assistant Professor
> > Department of Anthropology
> > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > Brigham Young University
> > Provo, UT 84602
> > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> > __________________________________________
> > _____
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>



-- 
Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
Visiting Assistant Professor
Department of Anthropology
883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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