[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
Re: [xmca] Pivot or Carrier in play?
The interesting thing is that actually the meaning of a "horse" is not "detached" from the actual concept of the horse!
Rather it is used without the horse being present! The horse is still imagined!
But the "stick" can be anything: a stick, a broom, a chair (as in a Serbian children' song), a carpet, a small (or bigger) block. It can even be totally absent -- just present in the movements of the child.
What do you think?
Ana
____________________________________
Ana Marjanovic-Shane
Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal
Associate Professor of Education
Chestnut Hill College
Emails: anamshane@gmail.com
shaneam@chc.edu
Phone: 267-334-2905
On Apr 9, 2013, at 4:52 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9 April 2013 21:33, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> *From the OED: *
>> *
>> *
>>
>> *Pivot ...A short shaft or pin, usually of metal and pointed, forming the
>> centre on which a mechanism turns or oscillates, as the pin of a hinge, or
>> the end of an axle...*
>>
>>
>>
>> *Fulcrum: A prop or support; now only spec. in Mech. the point against
>> which a lever is placed to get purchase or upon which it turns or is
>> supported.*
>>
>>
>>
> Pivot affords the verb, as an aside, which is the doing part of the stick.
>
> No exotic birds over here, *just* robins and pivoting fulcrums.
>
> Huw
>
>
>
>> **
>>
>> *What an interesting pair of terms, especially in the context of your
>> interests, Beth.*
>>
>> *
>> *
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9 April 2013 15:40, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <bella.kotik@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> fulcrum seems OK
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Are you translating the paragraph or the term/word?
>>>
>>> The English text is using pivot in about three different ways in relation
>>> to the paragraph and the paragraph's object.
>>>
>>> Fulcrum does not capture this because it does not connote the prizing of
>>> the idea of the horse away from the horse itself, which one can do with a
>>> stick (as a lever or crowbar).
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Huw
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Christine Schweighart <
>>>> schweighartc@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I can't read Russian, I'm guessing you are looking to express a
>> meaning
>>>>> something like 'fulcrum' - not the lever or pivot itself as a thing.
>>>>> http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/fulcrum
>>>>> Christine
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
>>>>> bella.kotik@gmail.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> As I mentioned he does NOT use this term rather he writes:
>>>>>> "В тот момент, когда палочка, т.е. вещь, становится опорной точкой
>>> для
>>>>>> отрывания значения лошади от реальной лошади, в этот критический
>>> момент
>>>>>> коренным образом меняется одна из основных психологических
>> структур,
>>>>>> определяющая отношение ребенка к действительности".
>>>>>> опорная точка-
>>>>>> literally: a point of support
>>>>>> Bella
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is all very helpful, thank you:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is стимул-средство what Vygotsky uses in the following paragraph
>>> from
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> chapter on play, or another word, and is стимул-средство is best
>>>>>> translated
>>>>>>> as a type of tool? Which type -- ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Thought is separated from objects because a piece of wood begins
>>> to
>>>>> be a
>>>>>>> doll and a stick becomes a horse. Action according to rules
>> begins
>>> to
>>>>> be
>>>>>>> determined by ideas, not by objects. This is such a reversal of
>> the
>>>>>> child's
>>>>>>> relationship to the real, immediate, concrete situation that it
>> is
>>>> hard
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> evaluate its full significance. The child does not do this all at
>>>> once.
>>>>>> It
>>>>>>> is terribly difficult for a child to sever thought (the meaning
>> of
>>> a
>>>>>> word)
>>>>>>> from object. Play is a transitional stage in this direction. At
>>> that
>>>>>>> critical moment when a stick - i.e., an object - becomes a pivot
>>> for
>>>>>>> severing the meaning of horse from a real horse, one of the basic
>>>>>>> psychological structures determining the child's relationship to
>>>>> reality
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> radically altered."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
>>>>>>> bella.kotik@gmail.com
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the original paper on play I have not found a special term
>> for
>>>> it,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> in further developments it seems that стимул-средство would be
>> a
>>>>> proper
>>>>>>>> term
>>>>>>>> Bella
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 5:38 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yo!!
>>>>>>>>> Would one of our Russian colleagues who can put their hands
>> on
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> Russian
>>>>>>>>> essay please tell us what the russian word for pivot Vygotsky
>>>> uses?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane <
>>>>>>>> anamshane@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dear Beth and Monica,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think that you should see how would you call a knife and
>>> two
>>>>>>> glasses
>>>>>>>>>> that two engineer friend may use over a dinner to talk
>> about
>>> a
>>>>> new
>>>>>>>> bridge
>>>>>>>>>> they are planning to build.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Are the knife and the glasses "carriers", "pivots", "place
>>>>> holders"
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> something else?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I like to think of them as "pivots" (for meaning) because
>>> they
>>>> do
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> CARRY meanings, for which they are used for in this
>>>> conversation.
>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>> words, I don't think these objects are used metaphorically.
>>> In
>>>>>>>> metaphor,
>>>>>>>>>> you mean to say something ABOUT an object (person, event,
>>>>> concept,
>>>>>>>> etc.)
>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>> calling it a different name.
>>>>>>>>>> "My pillow is my spaceship" -- If I said that to you,
>> imagine
>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>>> that mean? Many beautiful, adventurous, romantic, sci-tech
>>>>>>>> possibilities!
>>>>>>>>>> But when my 3 yr old son took a pillow, sat on it, started
>>>>> playing
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> version of the "Start Wars" and said the same utterance "My
>>>>> pillow
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>> spaceship"-- it wasn't a metaphor. Just an object (pivot -
>> a
>>>>>> holder)
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> play a role in populating the imagined realm.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In play these objects (sticks, knifes...) just hold the
>> place
>>>> of
>>>>>>> images
>>>>>>>>>> and concepts in the imagined realm -- without providing any
>>>>> meaning
>>>>>>>>> "ABOUT"
>>>>>>>>>> these imagined things (horses, bridges, spaceships).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Carrier" is not bad -- but can be confused with metaphor.
>>>>>>>>>> "Pivot" is very neutral and very descriptive -- the meaning
>>> is
>>>>>>> "hinged"
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> the object.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ana
>>>>>>>>>> ____________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Ana Marjanovic-Shane
>>>>>>>>>> Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal
>>>>>>>>>> Associate Professor of Education
>>>>>>>>>> Chestnut Hill College
>>>>>>>>>> Emails: anamshane@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> shaneam@chc.edu
>>>>>>>>>> Phone: 267-334-2905
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 8, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Beth Ferholt <
>>> bferholt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Monica and I are discussing the horse/stick -- in Swedish
>>> the
>>>>>> stick
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> carrier, in English a pivot, and which do people think
>> is a
>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>>> translation??
>>>>>>>>>>> (There is a word for Pivot in Swedish but still Carrier
>> was
>>>>>> chosen
>>>>>>>> -- )
>>>>>>>>>>> THank you for the help,
>>>>>>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Beth Ferholt
>>>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>>>>>>>>> School of Education
>>>>>>>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
>>>>>>>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue
>>>>>>>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>>>>>>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205
>>>>>>>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816
>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________
>>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Beth Ferholt
>>>>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>>>>> School of Education
>>>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
>>>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue
>>>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205
>>>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816
>>>>>>> __________________________________________
>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
>>>>>> __________________________________________
>>>>>> _____
>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________
>>>>> _____
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
>>>> __________________________________________
>>>> _____
>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>
>>> __________________________________________
>>> _____
>>> xmca mailing list
>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>
>> __________________________________________
>> _____
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
__________________________________________
_____
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca