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Re: [xmca] Polls are closed: Manfred Holodynsk's article is choice

On 17 March 2013 23:56, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> As I understand it, "mirror neurons" are not supposed to be sensory
> neurons or motor neurons, but in the frontal lobe. But in any case,
> reacting to light or pressure. etc., constitutes a connection to a neuron
> in someone else's head only in the most trivial sense. But my intention was
> actually to head off a diversion but I am in danger of creating one. I
> certainly have experienced a baby smiling back at me, but I think ascribing
> this behaviour to "mirror neurons" is pure metaphysics, about as
> explanatory as ascribing it to angels, only except that "mirror neurons"
> belongs to today's religion. I think infant smiling is most fruitfully
> discussed as behaviour rather than brain activity.
>
> On the other matter, far from occupying different realms, words *are*
> things. But thoughts are not. But I no longer try to persuade people of
> this. A lost cause. In the world of "mirror neurons" thoughts are also
> configurations of neurons. :(
>

Andy
>
>
Is a snowman a thing or a process? ;)

Coffee break over... H.


> Greg Thompson wrote:
>
>> Andy, I think that there is an incredibly important assumption here in
>> your comment that has been side-stepped by other responses thus far
>> You wrote:
>> "leaving aside surgical intervention, neurons only react to other neurons
>> by direct electrochemical interaction."
>>
>> If this were true, we would never be able to make any contact with the
>> world "outside" of our brains - neurons would just be talking to neurons
>> and they would have no connection with the "world out there" (or any world
>> for that matter!), and in which case, we would not be able to see, hear,
>> touch, smell, feel, balance, etc.
>>
>> But we can do all these things. Thus, there must be a process of moving
>> from one to the other - from light striking the retina to neurons firing in
>> the retina and on down the brain (but where is "seeing"?). So "mirror
>> neurons" aren't necessarily impossible (although it may still be incomplete
>> or wrong for other reasons).
>>
>> [and I hope you'll notice a parallel here between the concern articulated
>> in this email and my previous response to the division that you introduced
>> in an XMCA post some time ago between the dollar in your pocket and the
>> dollar in your head. As if the WORD and the THING are in fundamentally
>> different realms - never to meet one another]
>>
>> But I think that there is an intuition in your comment about neurons that
>> nicely "lights up" one of the central problematics of Western science: how
>> do you get from physical stuff to mental stuff?
>> I suspect that this question-as-problem arises from a confused
>> understanding of what we mean by both "physical" and "mental". On the one
>> hand, we neglect the semiotic, information-based properties of the physical
>> (and Gregory Bateson is a great place to look for a better understanding
>> here). And similarly, on the other hand, we neglect the physical aspects of
>> what we understand to be "mental" (and here, perhaps Charles Peirce is a
>> good place to look here).
>> And a bigger problem within which both of these troubles sit is our
>> tendency of our understanding towards entification rather than seeking the
>> relational and processual nature of both the so-called "physical" and the
>> so-called "mental." And that's a whole other problem altogether.
>>
>> But I've said a lot (too much?) already.
>> -greg
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 6:15 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:
>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>
>>     Robert, if I were to suggest that "mirror neurons" are a
>>     metaphyical belief which have no more basis in existence than
>>     phlogiston or ether, would that actually change anything? Have you
>>     ever been misled by the mistaken observation of "mirror neuron"
>>     activity, or has observation of a mirror neuron ever explained
>>     some otherwise inexplicable event? So far as I know, leaving aside
>>     surgical intervention, neurons only react to other neurons by
>>     direct electrochemical interaction.
>>     Andy
>>
>>     Robert Lake wrote:
>>
>>         Hi everyone,
>>         I am a relative newcomer to CHAT research, so this (mostly
>>         rhetorical) question is probably
>>         old hat to many of you. It concerns Holodynski's article as it
>>         may or may not relate to the notion of mirror neurons as
>>         described by Ramachandran.
>>
>>         http://www.ted.com/talks/vs_**ramachandran_the_neurons_that_**
>> shaped_civilization.html<http://www.ted.com/talks/vs_ramachandran_the_neurons_that_shaped_civilization.html>
>>
>>
>>         If I understand this correctly, in Holodynski's view, a
>>         caregiver mirrors back to the child, his or her own emotions
>>         through gesture and facial expressions. What if the child's
>>         emotions/expressions fall into the range of autism spectrum
>>         disorders? Can ZPD's be created that in turn help create and
>>         develop "empathy" neurons in us regardless of our age level?
>>         Are there some cultures that are more emotionally and perhaps
>>         empathically evolved?
>>
>>         Thank-you MCA team  and Professor Holodynski for this article.
>>         I think it represents the a key component for the future of
>>         cultural/historical research.
>>
>>         Fascinated and curious,
>>         Robert Lake
>>
>>
>>         On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 10:59 PM, Andy Blunden
>>         <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>         <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
>>
>>             The article for discussion is now available at:
>>             http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/**Journal/pdfs/20-1-holodynski.**pdf<http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Journal/pdfs/20-1-holodynski.pdf>
>>
>>
>>             Andy
>>
>>             mike cole wrote:
>>
>>                 We will make available Manfred Holodynski's article - The
>>                 Internalization
>>                 Theory of Emotions: A Cultural Historical Approach to the
>>                 Development of Emotions - available
>>                 for discussion as soon as possible. Then let the
>>         discussion begin!
>>
>>                 mike
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>>
>>
>>             --            ------------------------------**
>> ------------------------------**------------
>>
>>             *Andy Blunden*
>>             Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>         <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/**> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/*
>> *>
>>
>>
>>             Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>>             http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>         --         *Robert Lake  Ed.D.
>>         *Associate Professor
>>         Social Foundations of Education
>>         Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
>>         Georgia Southern University
>>         P. O. Box 8144
>>         Phone: (912) 478-0355 <tel:%28912%29%20478-0355>
>>         Fax: (912) 478-5382 <tel:%28912%29%20478-5382>
>>
>>         Statesboro, GA  30460
>>
>>          /Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and
>>         education is its midwife./
>>         /-/John Dewey.
>>
>>
>>     --     ------------------------------**------------------------------
>> **------------
>>
>>
>>
>>     *Andy Blunden*
>>     Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/
>> **>
>>     Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>>     http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>> Visiting Assistant Professor
>> Department of Anthropology
>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>> Brigham Young University
>> Provo, UT 84602
>> http://byu.academia.edu/**GregoryThompson<http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>
>>
>
> --
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> ------------
>
> *Andy Blunden*
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
>
>
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