Hi Andy,
I am sorry for diverting the conversation about the article.
It was just freshly on my mind since the word "mirror" is used
several times in the text.
Can we start over?
RL
On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 7:56 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
As I understand it, "mirror neurons" are not supposed to be
sensory neurons or motor neurons, but in the frontal lobe. But in
any case, reacting to light or pressure. etc., constitutes a
connection to a neuron in someone else's head only in the most
trivial sense. But my intention was actually to head off a
diversion but I am in danger of creating one. I certainly have
experienced a baby smiling back at me, but I think ascribing this
behaviour to "mirror neurons" is pure metaphysics, about as
explanatory as ascribing it to angels, only except that "mirror
neurons" belongs to today's religion. I think infant smiling is
most fruitfully discussed as behaviour rather than brain activity.
On the other matter, far from occupying different realms, words
*are* things. But thoughts are not. But I no longer try to
persuade people of this. A lost cause. In the world of "mirror
neurons" thoughts are also configurations of neurons. :(
Andy
Greg Thompson wrote:
Andy, I think that there is an incredibly important assumption
here in your comment that has been side-stepped by other
responses thus far
You wrote:
"leaving aside surgical intervention, neurons only react to
other neurons by direct electrochemical interaction."
If this were true, we would never be able to make any contact
with the world "outside" of our brains - neurons would just be
talking to neurons and they would have no connection with the
"world out there" (or any world for that matter!), and in
which case, we would not be able to see, hear, touch, smell,
feel, balance, etc.
But we can do all these things. Thus, there must be a process
of moving from one to the other - from light striking the
retina to neurons firing in the retina and on down the brain
(but where is "seeing"?). So "mirror neurons" aren't
necessarily impossible (although it may still be incomplete or
wrong for other reasons).
[and I hope you'll notice a parallel here between the concern
articulated in this email and my previous response to the
division that you introduced in an XMCA post some time ago
between the dollar in your pocket and the dollar in your head.
As if the WORD and the THING are in fundamentally different
realms - never to meet one another]
But I think that there is an intuition in your comment about
neurons that nicely "lights up" one of the central
problematics of Western science: how do you get from physical
stuff to mental stuff?
I suspect that this question-as-problem arises from a confused
understanding of what we mean by both "physical" and "mental".
On the one hand, we neglect the semiotic, information-based
properties of the physical (and Gregory Bateson is a great
place to look for a better understanding here). And similarly,
on the other hand, we neglect the physical aspects of what we
understand to be "mental" (and here, perhaps Charles Peirce is
a good place to look here).
And a bigger problem within which both of these troubles sit
is our tendency of our understanding towards entification
rather than seeking the relational and processual nature of
both the so-called "physical" and the so-called "mental." And
that's a whole other problem altogether.
But I've said a lot (too much?) already.
-greg
On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 6:15 AM, Andy Blunden
<ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
Robert, if I were to suggest that "mirror neurons" are a
metaphyical belief which have no more basis in existence than
phlogiston or ether, would that actually change anything?
Have you
ever been misled by the mistaken observation of "mirror
neuron"
activity, or has observation of a mirror neuron ever explained
some otherwise inexplicable event? So far as I know,
leaving aside
surgical intervention, neurons only react to other neurons by
direct electrochemical interaction.
Andy
Robert Lake wrote:
Hi everyone,
I am a relative newcomer to CHAT research, so this (mostly
rhetorical) question is probably
old hat to many of you. It concerns Holodynski's
article as it
may or may not relate to the notion of mirror neurons as
described by Ramachandran.
http://www.ted.com/talks/vs_ramachandran_the_neurons_that_shaped_civilization.html
If I understand this correctly, in Holodynski's view, a
caregiver mirrors back to the child, his or her own
emotions
through gesture and facial expressions. What if the
child's
emotions/expressions fall into the range of autism
spectrum
disorders? Can ZPD's be created that in turn help
create and
develop "empathy" neurons in us regardless of our age
level?
Are there some cultures that are more emotionally and
perhaps
empathically evolved?
Thank-you MCA team and Professor Holodynski for this
article.
I think it represents the a key component for the
future of
cultural/historical research.
Fascinated and curious,
Robert Lake
On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 10:59 PM, Andy Blunden
<ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>> wrote:
The article for discussion is now available at:
http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Journal/pdfs/20-1-holodynski.pdf
Andy
mike cole wrote:
We will make available Manfred Holodynski's
article - The
Internalization
Theory of Emotions: A Cultural Historical
Approach to the
Development of Emotions - available
for discussion as soon as possible. Then let the
discussion begin!
mike
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Social Foundations of Education
Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
Georgia Southern University
P. O. Box 8144
Phone: (912) 478-0355
Fax: (912) 478-5382
Statesboro, GA 30460
/Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is
its midwife./
/-/John Dewey.