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Re: [xmca] Polls are closed: Manfred Holodynsk's article is choice
Martin,
I'm still *groping* for how these *transformations* (translations) are
mediated. However, merleau pointy as I struggle to understand his
cosmovision is the closest to understanding 1st person subjectivity AND 3rd
person frames as simultaneously developing phenomena. Elena cufferi in her
thesis refers to merleau ponty's notion of *gestures* as more far reaching
than her more narrow version of gestures.
However, her explorations of language as BOTH conventional and spontaneous
and the exploration of gestures as BOTH conventional and spontaneous seems
to be exploring the same source as expressive signs as forms of
understanding. However, my limited understanding of merleau ponty is that
his understanding of the spontaneity/sedimentation dialectic is deeply
engaged in moving beyond either/or forms of understanding that would add
depth to Elena's exploration of gestures as both conventional and
spontaneous simultaneously.
I also wonder if merleau ponty can add depth to the understanding of
*expressive signs* AS simultaneously conventional and spontaneous?
Martin, I will quickly add in Michael billing's notion of rhetorical
understanding. Discourse on *rules* and *norms* and following the rules as
enacting metaphors and models of game playing or drama. His insight that AS
we play games or act our parts we are being conventional. However there is
a much larger world behind our conventional world which I would describe as
inter-subjective.
This article is describing the direction of development as from the social
to the internal.
I wonder if the internal and the social are more fluidly coordinated. Your
article on if a divination and bringing in bahktin's notions of *voice*
seems to me to be more multi-directional. Merleau ponty's notion of chiasm
AS ways of mediated interpretive transforming perception AND simultaneously
conception as a single process.
Martin, I wonder if thinking originates intersubjectively and then both
1st person and 3rd person forms of thinking are derivative??
Now this question represents a particular attitude or style of
thinking/communicating as a type of rhetorical understanding. Whether this
type of conversational thinking out loud adds to the discussion of this
article and the centrality of expressive signs which mediate between the
psychological and the sociocultural is an open question.
Larry
On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:
> Larry,
>
> Right - and then 2nd and 3rd person feed back to transform 1st person.
> Right?
>
> Martin
>
> On Mar 17, 2013, at 1:33 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Michael, robert
> > Not to get off focus but the assumption of mirror neurons is that the
> > *same* neurons that fire when I pick up a glass of water are firing in
> the
> > person perceiving my action.
> > It is the notion of *identity* that is being assumed to be relevant to
> the
> > research on mirror neurons.
> > This *fact* is then used to justify a 2nd person frame of understanding
> as
> > an emerging inter-subjective framework.
> > Whether this assumption of the primacy of intersubjectivity as 2nd
> person
> > frames is *justified* can be argued from multiple perspectives, but
> mirror
> > neurons are used as a justification for the primacy of this 2nd person
> > interpretation.
> >
> > The notion of *expressive signs* AS *gestures* can also be used to
> support
> > an assumption of the primacy of 2nd person frames.
> > What is being mediated is the way gestures are *responded* to.
> Expressive
> > signs as 2nd person understanding and expressive symbols as 3rd person
> > frames as developing FROM 2nd person expressive signs is one way to
> *read*
> > the function of expressive signs AND symbols.
> >
> > Our recent discussion of Dewey's notion of *experience* also can be
> brought
> > into this conversation.
> > Larry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Robert,
> >>
> >> I know we're not supposed to say this about brain researchers but it
> seems
> >> Ramachadran makes an extraordinary leap. What do we actually know.
> When
> >> we see somebody engage in an action neurons in our brain fire. This
> makes
> >> an extraordinary amount of sense. We have known this for a while I
> think
> >> and it is the logical extension of vicarious learning. But then he
> takes
> >> this one fact and spins this story out of it about the entire
> development
> >> of culture. It may be true, but I think we have no idea.
> >>
> >> I would bet you a million dollars that when I do something with my dog
> >> laying on the ground in front of me a percentage of neurons in his brain
> >> fires as well. But he doesn't mirror my action, he reacts to it
> incredibly
> >> quickly (more quickly than most humans). What do we call these neurons.
> >> Or to take the specific example, we watch somebody being touched and the
> >> mirror neurons in our brain react to that so we put ourselves in the
> place
> >> of that person. But if somebody came up to me and touched me my dog
> would
> >> react much more specifically based on the type of touch (come over the
> join
> >> in the play or growl at the aggression). Again I bet the house that
> >> neurons are firing in my dog's brain, but would we call them mirror
> neurons?
> >>
> >> Again, I'm not saying what Ramachadran is wrong, simply that when you
> get
> >> past the immediate empirical evidence most of it is a story he is
> spinning
> >> out from it.
> >>
> >> Michael
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] on
> behalf
> >> of Robert Lake [boblake@georgiasouthern.edu]
> >> Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:34 AM
> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >> Subject: Re: [xmca] Polls are closed: Manfred Holodynsk's article is
> choice
> >>
> >> Andy,
> >> Have you ever smiled at a baby and had them smile back?
> >> There is nothing metaphysical about that :-).
> >> Did you watch the TED talk?
> >> RL
> >>
> >> On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
> >>> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 17 March 2013 12:15, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Robert, if I were to suggest that "mirror neurons" are a metaphyical
> >>>> belief which have no more basis in existence than phlogiston or ether,
> >>>> would that actually change anything? Have you ever been misled by the
> >>>> mistaken observation of "mirror neuron" activity, or has observation
> >> of a
> >>>> mirror neuron ever explained some otherwise inexplicable event? So far
> >>> as I
> >>>> know, leaving aside surgical intervention, neurons only react to other
> >>>> neurons by direct electrochemical interaction.
> >>>> Andy
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> There's theoretical room for the rest of the electromagnetic spectrum,
> >> e.g.
> >>> optics. I think Robert is referring to the whites of the eyes
> >> phenomena
> >>> observed in monkey(?) brain scans.
> >>>
> >>> In this sense its ontological status is that one can draw a dotted line
> >>> around a scan image etc and name it.
> >>>
> >>> As far as the autism line of reasoning goes, I guess its akin to the
> >>> phenomena of blindness in children who have (unfortunately) have had a
> >>> patch over their eye during particular neurological developments
> whereby
> >>> they are later unable to see out of what looks like a perfectly
> >> functioning
> >>> eye.
> >>>
> >>> I will leave it to Robert to speculate on the social genesis of its
> >>> systemic relevance...
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> Huw
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Robert Lake wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi everyone,
> >>>>> I am a relative newcomer to CHAT research, so this (mostly
> rhetorical)
> >>>>> question is probably
> >>>>> old hat to many of you. It concerns Holodynski's article as it may or
> >>> may
> >>>>> not relate to the notion of mirror neurons as described by
> >> Ramachandran.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.ted.com/talks/vs_**ramachandran_the_neurons_that_**
> >>>>> shaped_civilization.html<
> >>>
> >>
> http://www.ted.com/talks/vs_ramachandran_the_neurons_that_shaped_civilization.html
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If I understand this correctly, in Holodynski's view, a caregiver
> >>> mirrors
> >>>>> back to the child, his or her own emotions through gesture and facial
> >>>>> expressions. What if the child's emotions/expressions fall into the
> >>> range
> >>>>> of autism spectrum disorders? Can ZPD's be created that in turn help
> >>> create
> >>>>> and develop "empathy" neurons in us regardless of our age level? Are
> >>> there
> >>>>> some cultures that are more emotionally and perhaps empathically
> >>> evolved?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank-you MCA team and Professor Holodynski for this article. I
> think
> >>> it
> >>>>> represents the a key component for the future of cultural/historical
> >>>>> research.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Fascinated and curious,
> >>>>> Robert Lake
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 10:59 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> >>> <mailto:
> >>>>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The article for discussion is now available at:
> >>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/**Journal/pdfs/20-1-holodynski.**pdf<
> >>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Journal/pdfs/20-1-holodynski.pdf>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Andy
> >>>>>
> >>>>> mike cole wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> We will make available Manfred Holodynski's article - The
> >>>>> Internalization
> >>>>> Theory of Emotions: A Cultural Historical Approach to the
> >>>>> Development of Emotions - available
> >>>>> for discussion as soon as possible. Then let the discussion
> >>> begin!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> mike
> >>>>> ______________________________**____________
> >>>>> _____
> >>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>> ------------------------------**------------------------------
> >>>>> **------------
> >>>>> *Andy Blunden*
> >>>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <
> >>> http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/
> >>>>> **>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> >>>>> http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<
> >>> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ______________________________**____________
> >>>>> _____
> >>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> *Robert Lake Ed.D.
> >>>>> *Associate Professor
> >>>>> Social Foundations of Education
> >>>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
> >>>>> Georgia Southern University
> >>>>> P. O. Box 8144
> >>>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355
> >>>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382
> >>>>> Statesboro, GA 30460
> >>>>>
> >>>>> /Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is
> >> its
> >>>>> midwife./
> >>>>> /-/John Dewey.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> >>>> ------------
> >>>>
> >>>> *Andy Blunden*
> >>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> >>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> >>>> http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<
> >>> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ______________________________**____________
> >>>> _____
> >>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> >>>>
> >>> __________________________________________
> >>> _____
> >>> xmca mailing list
> >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> *Robert Lake Ed.D.
> >> *Associate Professor
> >> Social Foundations of Education
> >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
> >> Georgia Southern University
> >> P. O. Box 8144
> >> Phone: (912) 478-0355
> >> Fax: (912) 478-5382
> >> Statesboro, GA 30460
> >>
> >> *Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its
> >> midwife.*
> >> *-*John Dewey.
> >> __________________________________________
> >> _____
> >> xmca mailing list
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> >>
> >> __________________________________________
> >> _____
> >> xmca mailing list
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> > __________________________________________
> > _____
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________
> _____
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