Re: [xmca] "Rising to the concrete"

[Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>]

Andy,

I believe that the basic point that Mike is referring to here, is that
perceiving the dispositional relations of the blocks is a different means
of confirmation to taking the original arrangement and rotating it.

The analog form fulfilled the task to perceive the structure (to, at least,
the precision required for the test) "from the inside".  Whereas rotation
takes a form "from the outside" and manipulates this structure.

As we've already discussed to apprehend from the inside is comprehend more
concretely.

Going back to the other contention, your assertion that analog and digital
belong to a different frame is wrong.  The only possible truth of the
assertion is that they have nothing to do with your frame.

To abstract is to measure.  To measure is to compare.  Comparison is
digital.  The concrete material world, however, forms an indivisible whole,
it is analog.

On a basic point of principle, it is absolutely imperative to creative
thinking that everything can be related.  To assert that something is not
relevant is to prevent such creative thinking, which is exactly the kind of
thinking, for instance, that Mike is offering up.  What would be the point
in merely providing answers?  I hope you agree.

Huw








On 15 August 2012 18:02, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for posting the link to the paper, Andy.
>
> I believe that a starting point is to ask the following question(s):
>
> 1. What is it that accounts for the increase in time to carry out a mental
> rotation for the plain
> conglomeration of blocks?
>
> 2. Whatever the process is, why is it that the amount of rotation is
> irrelevant if the figure has
> a schematic face/head on it in a place where it appears person-like?
>
> Maybe all the concrete is between my ears.
> mike
>
> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 8:27 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>
> > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/**ap81v3n2.PDF<
> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ap81v3n2.PDF>p.16
> >
> > Mike, I also, at first had the same problem with motorscooter indicator,
> > and I used a different but similar tactic to overcome it. Also, as a
> civil
> > engineer I learnt that it was essential to imagine yourself as the
> building
> > in order to nknow where the stresses would be and effectively design it,
> > and most difficult problems, up to the point of calculations could be
> > solved this way.
> >
> > But ... :) ... I can't see what this has to do with abstract and
> concrete.
> > Can you explain?
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > mike cole wrote:
> >
> >> A wonderful paper by Yutaka Sayeki (with two key figures reversed, but
> it
> >> is obvious where the mistake was made when you read it) has an example
> of
> >> what I take to be almost a "measure" of rising to the concrete (see also
> >> Davydov's ideas on the topic).
> >>
> >> Its part of a special issue of the newsletter. Accessible to anyone at
> >> lchc.ucsd.edu <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
> >>
> >> *
> >>
> >> Volume 3, Number 2 April 1981
> >>
> >> *
> >>
> >> AZUMA, Hiroshi: /A Note on Cross-Cultural Study/
> >>
> >> INAGAKI, Kayoko: /Facilitation of Knowledge Integration through /
> >>
> >> /Classroom Discussion/
> >>
> >> KASHIWAGI, Keiko: /Note on the Socialization Processes in Japan/
> >>
> >> HATANO, Giyoo, KUHARA, Keiko, and AKIYAMA, Michael: /Kanji Help /
> >>
> >> /Readers of Japanese Infer the Meaning of Unfamiliar Words/
> >>
> >> SAITO, Hirofumi/: Toward Comparative Studies in Reading Kanji and /
> >>
> >> /Kana/
> >>
> >> SAYEKI, Yutaka: /"Body Analogy" and the Cognition of Rotated Figures/
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 5:24 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
> <mailto:
> >> huw.softdesigns@gmail.**com <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >>
> >>     On 15 August 2012 13:01, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> >>     <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> >>
> >>     > Well, these issues are not going to be solved in 5 minutes, Huw.
> >>     Analog
> >>     > and digital belong to a completely different frame than the
> >>     concepts of
> >>     > abstract/concrete and general/universal which I think Greg asked
> >>     about
> >>     > initially.
> >>     >
> >>
> >>     Analog was an elaboration.  This point is not necessary to resolve
> >>     "universal" in the Lenin quote.
> >>
> >>     Huw
> >>
> >>
> >>     >
> >>     > Let me be brief then. Ilyenkov famously makes the point that
> >>     (exchange)
> >>     > value is an ideal, but it is also real. The market implements a
> >>     process of
> >>     > abstracting the value of commodities but it is the very
> >>     concreteness of the
> >>     > market which makes that process possible.
> >>
> >>     Democracy is an ideal which really motivates millions of people and
> >>     > underpins constitutional governments.
> >>     >
> >>
> >>     > Universal suffrage allows that insane people, criminals and
> >>     children do
> >>     > not vote. And what is more, when the President is elected, only
> >>     the votes
> >>     > of 51% count. (There are of course plenty of "Ah, but ..."s
> >>     about this, but
> >>     > this is what is meant by the difference between the general and
> the
> >>     > universal.)
> >>     >
> >>     > http://www.marxists.org/****reference/archive/hegel/works/****<
> http://www.marxists.org/**reference/archive/hegel/works/**>
> >>     >
> >>     sl/slsubjec.htm#SL163n1b<http:**//www.marxists.org/reference/**
> >> archive/hegel/works/sl/**slsubjec.htm#SL163n1b<
> http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sl/slsubjec.htm#SL163n1b
> >
> >> >
> >>     >
> >>     > Andy
> >>     >
> >>     >
> >>     ______________________________**____________
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> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > --
> > ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> > ------------
> > *Andy Blunden*
> > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> > Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> >
> > ______________________________**____________
> > _____
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