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RE: [xmca] Centralized vs. Distributed decision-making in schools

Fine piece, Peter!
Vera

-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 6:01 AM
To: ablunden@mira.net; eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity
Subject: RE: [xmca] Centralized vs. Distributed decision-making in schools

In one of the Post pieces, I do use the university model, which relies on
faculty expertise and judgment and is both competitive and collaborative.
I'm also happy with my level of academic freedom. I'm sure it'd be flawed,
but nothing like what Arne Duncan's got in mind. See
http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2012/04/01/the-billion-dollar-questio
n-for-arne-duncan-why-has-testing-become-the-driver-in-school-reform/ in
today's Atlanta paper, where I've written most of my op-ed pieces. I do
strongly encourage people to take their arguments to the people, which means
doing more public intellectual work in newspapers and on the web. Otherwise,
we're just having very interesting conversations among ourselves, while
others are getting into the heads of the policymakers.

-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
Behalf Of Andy Blunden
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 7:47 AM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] Centralized vs. Distributed decision-making in schools

He, he! I think you are safe there, Peter, I agree.
I guess I interpreted your call for "decantralisation" as devolving ruling
what happens in a class down to school or county level, but what you are
talking about is really something different, isn't it? Like academics used
to have "academic freedom." Whatever funding system and system of awarding
certificates there may be, you are saying "leave what happens in the
classroom to the teachers." Sounds good to me.

Andy

Peter Smagorinsky wrote:
> Andy, I'll let you know when there are thousands of little
teacher-dictators running educational policy in the US. Right now they can't
even dictate when they go to the bathroom, much less make decisions that
oppress others.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
Behalf Of Andy Blunden
> Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 6:53 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Centralized vs. Distributed decision-making in schools
>
> Well, I am certainly following this discussion, Peter, and with interest,
despite a suspicion that my views on the question risked being dismissed as
that of an "orthodox marxist." :) I think, Peter, it makes little difference
whether education (or the economy) is run by thousands of little dictators
or one great dictator. Well, probably, we think thousands of little
dictators is better because a few kids will survive thanks to the odd benign
dictator. It does seem though that parties of all persuasion who gain power
at national or state or whatever level set out to "teacher-proof" the
education of children. If that is part of your complaint, I agree with you.
>
> I do think Jay is arguing in the right direction nthough. No kind of
planning will work in the absence of a working democracy. The best thing we
can do is criticise the way things are done - content rather than form -
i.e., criticise education not organisation. Lousy theories of education can
only be resolved by a social movement I think, not an argument how education
is organised.
>
> Andy
>
> Peter Smagorinsky wrote:
>   
>> Thanks Jay (although this seems to be a dialogue between you and me,
rather than something others are interested in discussing),
>>
>> I do hope that you're not suggesting that we kill people who disagree
with us ("but jail, penury, public ridicule, or death"). Though there are
days......
>>
>> I don't see a world in which teachers are making unilateral decisions. I
see them given the opportunity to make few decisions, if any, at all. Arne
Duncan's unilateral approach has been a thorough disaster, which supports
your point. But that's top-down power exercised by one individual over many
thousands. Teachers hardly have such opportunities, and so I'll spare their
lives for the moment.
>>
>> I don't think that there will be much in-servicing money available to
have experts brought in to address interesting problems like cell phone
usage, when in-servicing will no doubt be dedicated to meeting Common Core
Standards developed by people with lots of money and no experience in
classrooms. 
>>
>> When all's said and done, I don't think that anybody in authority will
listen to me, Jay, or anyone else not backed by corporate power. 
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
Behalf Of Jay Lemke
>> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 5:12 PM
>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Centralized vs. Distributed decision-making in
schools
>>
>>
>> Peter and all, 
>>
>> On the wider issue of centralized vs distributed, my view is that the
real trick is to figure out how to assign power/responsibility for different
kinds of decisions and policies across a range of more local to more global
(centralized) levels of decision-making institutions.
>>
>> I don't think that going all-central or all-local gives the best results.
I'd like to see many levels of decision-making, which has been the US
tradition in principle, though not in practice (local organizations, towns,
counties, states, federal) as revenue and authority have become increasingly
centralized here.
>>
>> But what we really need is some actual political SCIENCE: theories and
understandings that would enable us to make informed decisions about which
matters should be in the purview of which levels of decision-making.
"Distributed", not in the sense of maximally local, but in the sense of
distributed across the various levels of organization of the eco-social
system.
>>
>> I think the systems of social and political organization that we have are
really very primitive. Some european countries have experimented with more
sophisticated systems, but mainly at an advisory, or public-input level. The
main force working against the development of better approaches is the
high-benefit, lo-cost dynamics of power accumulation. The logical
countermeasure would be to greatly increase the risk to the decision-makers
and power-brokers of bad policy. Not just losing an election, or floating
off on your golden parachute, but jail, penury, public ridicule, or death.
There needs to be a substantial incentive to make sure that power gets
passed around and that decisions are made by the people who are best
positioned to make the right ones.
>>
>> In education, while I agree that teachers are often better positioned to
make good decisions --- about some things --- than school boards, state
officials, or federal agencies, what's important is to figure out WHICH
things those are. And it may not be simply a category like Teachers which is
the relevant alternative, but rather the functioning network of involved
people: which means, at the local level, whether classroom or school, not
just teachers, but also Students. And for some things, parents and perhaps
others.
>>
>> I think the recent discussion here about cellphones in the classroom
pointed pretty clearly to ways in which teachers' judgments could be
improved by sitting down and candidly discussing differences in viewpoint
with students (Ken Tobin, formerly Penn, now CUNY, has a lot of research
evidence to support this). The power to make unilateral decisions on matters
affecting others is (almost always) the enemy of good decision-making. That
applies to dictators, oligarchies, and bureaucracies; and it applies to
teachers, parents, and professors as well.
>>
>> Or so it seems to me.
>>
>> JAY.
>>
>>
>> Jay Lemke
>> Senior Research Scientist
>> Laboratory for Comparative Human Cognition Adjunct Professor, Department
of Communication University of California - San Diego
>> 9500 Gilman Drive
>> La Jolla, California 92093-0506
>>
>> New Website: www.jaylemke.com 
>>
>> Professor (Adjunct status 2011-2012)
>> School of Education
>> University of Michigan
>> Ann Arbor, MI 48109
>>
>> Professor Emeritus
>> City University of New York
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 30, 2012, at 3:11 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote:
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> Thanks Jay. My main point if that if you want to attract and retain
great teachers, you need to make teaching an attractive profession. I'll
take my chances with entrusting teachers with responsibility as a way to
help them make the difference that they get into the profession for.
>>>
>>> Risks? Of course. But I'll go with whatever risks follow from listening
to teachers, rather than having them straightjacketed by policies made by
people who just don't understand teaching, learning, or schooling.
>>>
>>> I'm sure that people could contest Diamond's conclusions, and I think he
does a nice job of presenting the views of people who disagree with him and
explaining why he believes what he does. At
http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Germs-Steel-Societies-ebook/dp/B000VDUWMC/ref=sr_
1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1333102072&sr=8-7 Amazon Prime members can download the book
for free. So see for yourself if you think he's on or off the mark. 
>>>
>>> Jay refers to two Washington Post pieces. Anthony Barra posted a link to
one of them previously. I'll re-post that one, plus the new one, next.
>>>
>>> Smagorinsky, P. (2012, March 28). How to remake the Education Department
(or, it's time to give teachers a chance). The Answer Sheet of The
Washington Post. Available at
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/how-to-remake-the-educ
ation-department-or-its-time-to-give-teachers-a-chance/2012/03/21/gIQAFg3KfS
_blog.html#pagebreak    
>>>
>>>
>>> Smagorinsky, P. (2012, March 11). Why the Ed Department should be 
>>> reconceived-or abolished. The Answer Sheet of The Washington Post. 
>>> Available at 
>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/why-the-ed-depar
>>> tment-should-be-reconceived--or-abolished/2012/03/09/gIQAHfdB5R_blog.h
>>> tml#pagebreak
>>>
>>> If you're an orthodox Marxist, you might not like either one. But then,
I'm a capitalist, albeit of the kinder and gentler sort.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] 
>>> On Behalf Of Jay Lemke
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 4:33 PM
>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Centralized vs. Distributed decision-making in 
>>> schools
>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting to see the discussion about wrong-headed education policy in
the US, and it seems elsewhere (as the same logic leads to the same
mistakes).
>>>
>>> I think Peter's indictment of the DOE and our federal education 
>>> policy, so ridiculously over-weighted toward test results (which test 
>>> only what's easy, and profitable, to test, and not the higher aims of 
>>> education) and inevitably driving the whole system toward mediocrity, 
>>> is strong and on target. (I note that mediocrity is actually an 
>>> improvement for those in the worst schools, though not an improvement 
>>> that will have much lasting value in their lives.)
>>>
>>> In particular, I was surprised at just how much a single educational
publishing and testing corporation (McGraw-Hill) makes off the
memorize-test-forget system. And Peter's analysis of the lack of real
qualifications of the last two heads of the federal Education department
(Duncan and Paige) seems to show that our senior politicians still believe,
as do most Americans, that everyone and anyone is an expert on education,
since we've all been to school (and most hated the experience). 
>>>
>>> But Peter's recipe of decentralization (elaborated on in a new opinion
piece in the Washington Post -- click the original one, then search on his
name) seems to carry a lot of risks as well. We used to have a completely
decentralized educational system in the US, town by town, and to a lesser
degree state by state, and one of the most significant effects of this was
the enormous disparity between local districts in what they taught (e.g. no
evolution in biology) and how much they spent (a factor of 2 or more between
different districts and states, per student). Education in some states was
reliably awful (Alabama, Mississippi) and in others reliably decent
(Minnesota, Wisconsin). Local school boards everywhere in the country were
notoriously financially corrupt, and rarely were those elected to them more
qualified than Duncan or Paige, and probably even less so. The few good
districts could be very, very good. The many bad districts were terrible.
>>>
>>> Peter puts a lot of faith in teachers and their judgment, or at least
their commitment and their capacity to innovate responsively in the
interests of their students' learning. I think this is a difficult area to
have certainty about. In the last 50 years the teaching profession has lost
a lot of really smart women as other career paths have become open to them,
and many teachers who served their students well with experience built up
over 20 years of more on the job have been replaced by a rapid turnover of
very young and inexperienced teachers who leave the profession, often
disillusioned, after a few years. Working conditions in schools are very
poor compared to almost all other MA-requiring careers. The teaching
profession today is drawing its candidates from the bottom tiers of college
graduates in terms of academic achievement. Good teachers can overcome many
other obstacles in the system, but there just aren't enough of them -- and I
don't think there ever will be. A radically different model is needed.
>>>
>>> Peter's new piece relies a lot on Jared Diamond's analysis of the
benefits of decentralized competition, but frankly I don't think his work is
really all that good. A lot of the analysis and conclusions strike me as
exculpatory toward European imperialism and colonialism on the global
historical stage. I enjoyed a lot of the details and some of the connections
he makes, but I don't think the grand conclusions are reliable.
>>>
>>> Anyway, Peter, I really applaud you for putting your views out there in
such a public forum (more of us should!), and I think you've targeted one of
the key problems; I'm just not so persuaded about the solution.
>>>
>>> JAY.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jay Lemke
>>> Senior Research Scientist
>>> Laboratory for Comparative Human Cognition Adjunct Professor, 
>>> Department of Communication University of California - San Diego
>>> 9500 Gilman Drive
>>> La Jolla, California 92093-0506
>>>
>>> New Website: www.jaylemke.com
>>>
>>> Professor (Adjunct status 2011-2012)
>>> School of Education
>>> University of Michigan
>>> Ann Arbor, MI 48109
>>>
>>> Professor Emeritus
>>> City University of New York
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 12, 2012, at 3:27 PM, Greg Thompson wrote:
>>>
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> As an interesting side note, this argument has been particularly 
>>>> welcomed by the political right in the US.
>>>>
>>>> Makes me wonder if there isn't the possibility of a political 
>>>> convergence in the US?
>>>>
>>>> (e.g. OWS and the Tea Party coming together. If only they didn't hate 
>>>> each other so much...).
>>>>
>>>> (a post-democratic revolution?)
>>>>
>>>> -greg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 7:05 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> Wow! That article breathes fire! Great writing, Peter. Education 
>>>>> Departments in my country as in others have been obliged to copy the 
>>>>> US system! Presumably political leaders that only ever learnt when 
>>>>> to put their hands up and how to tick boxes want a population 
>>>>> trained in this way of life. But seriously, is decentralisation the
way to go?
>>>>> Is idiotic education policies the result of "big government" or just
bad government?
>>>>> Or is this just a polemical stance, like "show me a good reason for 
>>>>> having an Education Department, then"?
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Anthony Barra wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> This dispatch on US education reform and the powers that be landed 
>>>>>> on my Facebook page last night:  "Why the Ed Department should be 
>>>>>> reconceived - or abolished" - by Peter Smagorinsky
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/**blogs/answer-sheet/post/why-**
>>>>>> the-ed-department-should-be-**reconceived--or-abolished/**
>>>>>> 2012/03/09/gIQAHfdB5R_blog.**html<http://www.washingtonpost.com/blo
>>>>>> g
>>>>>> s/answer-sheet/post/why-the-ed-department-should-be-reconceived--or
>>>>>> - abolished/2012/03/09/gIQAHfdB5R_blog.html>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> An educator on education policy, in the public sphere!  More of 
>>>>>> this please.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One excerpt:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Instead of having a highly centralized administration powered by 
>>>>>> money
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> contributed by textbook publishers and other entrepreneurs cashing 
>>>>>>> in on the lucrative enterprise of educational materials 
>>>>>>> production, I would have a *highly distributed approach*** in 
>>>>>>> which most decision-making is local and includes - and indeed, 
>>>>>>> relies on - the perspective of teachers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Presently, there's little reason for practicing teachers to<
>>>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.**com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/**
>>>>>>> five-ways-school-reform-is-**hurting-teacher-quality/2012/**
>>>>>>> 03/08/gIQAHUMK3R_blog.html<http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ans
>>>>>>> w
>>>>>>> er-sheet/post/five-ways-school-reform-is-hurting-teacher-quality/2
>>>>>>> 0
>>>>>>> 12/03/08/gIQAHUMK3R_blog.html>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>> **keep up with the latest ideas emerging from credible sources, 
>>>>>>>> or to
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>> engage
>>>>>>> in the process of producing those ideas and becoming credible 
>>>>>>> sources themselves. The approach that I suggest would lend urgency 
>>>>>>> to the need for teachers to be informed in order to make sound 
>>>>>>> decisions. It would place a premium on being a reflective 
>>>>>>> practitioner who is attentive to classroom processes and student 
>>>>>>> learning, because such observations would become part of the 
>>>>>>> broader school conversation about how to best educate the students 
>>>>>>> who attend the school."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> ***emphasis added* because I (as a citizen, not just educator) 
>>>>>> would love to hear more about this especially.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anthony
>>>>>> ______________________________**____________
>>>>>> _____
>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mai
>>>>>> l
>>>>>> man/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>> --
>>>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>>>>> ------------
>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>>> Joint Editor MCA: 
>>>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.
>>>>> c om/toc/hmca20/18/1> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>>>> Book: 
>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/gp/**product/1608461459/<http://www.amazon.com
>>>>> /
>>>>> gp/product/1608461459/>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________**____________
>>>>> _____
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mail
>>>>> m
>>>>> an/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> --
>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>>> Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar Laboratory of Comparative 
>>>> Human Cognition Department of Communication University of California, 
>>>> San Diego __________________________________________
>>>> _____
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>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>         
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>
>   

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
Book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1608461459/


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