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[xmca] Levy-Bruhl, "primitivism", progress and etc.



Tammy Powell created this summary of the discussion up to recently. It is
still moving in a couple of threads, at least. Perhaps having it brought
together like this would be helpful to others? Or is it a distraction in
the flow?
mike



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Tamara Powell <tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [xmca] Levy-Bruhl, concrete psychology and "primitivism"
To: lchcmike@gmail.com, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>


Okay, here's the updated versions.  I added Larry Purss' comment from a day
ago.

Tammy :)

On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 9:10 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:

> OK, thenh. Tammy  Make small changes Andy suggested and send out to me, As
> life allows, I will read, listen, watch, and deal with it.
> mike
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 8:44 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>
>> I hesitate to enter this kitchen.
>> Couple of comments. The vimeo link appears a second time. Not required.
>> *words inside asterisks* can be bold.
>>
>> I guess when it's complete, put it on the web site and send a message to
>> the list about it,
>> Andy
>>
>> mike cole wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks a lot, Tammy. I am going to cc Andy on this.
>>>
>>> Andy, the idea is to pull together a bunch of different, but
>>> interrelated, threads so that the overall topic is more visible.
>>> I gotta get off line, but this needs purusing. It should be fed
>>> back into xmca.
>>> mike
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Tamara Powell <
>>> tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**gmail.com<tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>    Hey Mike,
>>>
>>>    Here's a .pdf and .docx with all three conversations and with
>>>    notes about where conversations split/go to.
>>>
>>>    I hope this is helpful!
>>>
>>>    Tammy
>>>
>>>    On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 9:42 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com
>>>    <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>        Its not a hurry up thing, but a thing to be done. An example
>>>        of how a single discussion that is really worthwhile is
>>>        degraded by different headers etc, and confusions. ..... but
>>>        with some effort, the core topic can be discerned and maybe
>>>        some knowledge crystalized.
>>>        mike
>>>
>>>
>>>        On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 9:28 PM, Tamara Powell
>>>        <tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com
>>>        <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**gmail.com <tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>            No problem, should be fine.  I probably won't be able to
>>>            finish until tomorrow afternoon, but I'll try to figure
>>>            out a good way to condense things.
>>>
>>>            Tammy :)
>>>
>>>            On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 9:14 PM, mike cole
>>>            <lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                If you can. I think they are all part of the same
>>>                topic. Am i nuts?
>>>                m,
>>>
>>>
>>>                On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 9:05 PM, Tamara Powell
>>>                <tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com
>>>                <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**gmail.com<tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>                      The two other threads I see that seem connected
>>>                      are:
>>>
>>>
>>>                      [xmca] Bateson's distinction between digital and
>>>                      analog
>>>
>>>
>>>                      [xmca] Levy-Bruhl, concrete psychology and
>>>                      "primitivism" (was: Re: [xmca] Bateson's
>>>                      distinction between digital and analog)
>>>
>>>                    Do you want me to put all three threads together?
>>>
>>>                    Tammy
>>>
>>>                    On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 4:40 PM, mike cole
>>>                    <lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>
>>>                    wrote:
>>>
>>>                        Beautiful, but there is stuff by kellog on
>>>                        this I am  pretty
>>>                        sure. Check the archive for about past two weeks.
>>>                        m
>>>
>>>
>>>                        On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 3:54 PM, Tamara Powell
>>>                        <tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com
>>>                        <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**gmail.com<tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                            Hi Mike,
>>>
>>>                            How's this?  Do you want me or you to send
>>>                            it?
>>>
>>>                            Tammy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                            On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 12:03 PM, mike
>>>                            cole <lchcmike@gmail.com
>>>                            <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                                Tammy-- Could you find a way to make a
>>>                                single document that contains this
>>>                                discussion and the link to the vimeo
>>>                                to send out to xmca. I am really
>>>                                interested in getting the discussion
>>>                                straight, but l am way too
>>>                                pressed to go back and make a coherent
>>>                                set. Could you?
>>>                                mike
>>>
>>>
>>>                                On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 10:28 AM,
>>>                                Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com
>>>                                <mailto:stevegabosch@me.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                                    Martin, to supplement your
>>>                                    analysis below, could you attach,
>>>                                    or copy to text the slide you used
>>>                                    at ISCAR quoting the babalawo
>>>                                    teaching his client about the
>>>                                    astral?  It can be read but not
>>>                                    all at once in the Vimeo - which I
>>>                                    highly recommend, btw (only 20
>>>                                    minutes long) - thank you Andy for
>>>                                    putting that up and pointing it out.
>>>
>>>                                    The astral is a very interesting
>>>                                    concept.  I cannot think of an
>>>                                    equivalent word in English, or
>>>                                    even a quick definition for the
>>>                                    term - yet your presentation gives
>>>                                    me just enough to get an intuitive
>>>                                    sense of it.  The meaning is
>>>                                    familiar - but I don't have clear
>>>                                    words for it.  What is your take
>>>                                    on what the concept of the astral
>>>                                    is to a babalawo and others who
>>>                                    use the term?
>>>
>>>                                    And what an imposing translation
>>>                                    job this kind of research must
>>>                                    require - across modes of
>>>                                    production, continents, eras,
>>>                                    classes - and of course,
>>>                                    languages.  No wonder so few
>>>                                    researchers try to do something
>>>                                    like this!  It must be extremely
>>>                                    difficult to translate concepts
>>>                                    across such expanses in time,
>>>                                    space, class and mind.  It grossly
>>>                                    oversimplifies the task to just
>>>                                    describe it as the challenge of
>>>                                    translating a localized, religious
>>>                                    and mostly oral use of Spanish to
>>>                                    written and formal CHAT-ese
>>>                                    English - but that begins to give
>>>                                    a flavor of how complex it must
>>>                                    be.  I salute you, Martin, and all
>>>                                    those in CHAT, with Mike as the
>>>                                    great-granddad, who have been
>>>                                    doing this remarkable kind of
>>>                                    work.  It is one of the
>>>                                    cutting-edge aspects of CHAT.
>>>
>>>                                    What intrigues me about the astral
>>>                                    is how psychologically *concrete*
>>>                                    this concept seems to be in the
>>>                                    lives of the people interested in
>>>                                    the Oruba and Santaria religions.
>>>                                     Its concreteness strikes me in at
>>>                                    least two ways.
>>>
>>>                                    One is the role of the concept of
>>>                                    the astral in making lifestyle
>>>                                    choices about loaning out personal
>>>                                    belongings such as clothing,
>>>                                    towels, soap.  You point to the
>>>                                    solidity of the babalawo's
>>>                                    argument.  My intuition is telling
>>>                                    me he can do this because of the
>>>                                    concreteness of the concept of the
>>>                                    astral he is relying on and
>>>                                    explaining.
>>>
>>>                                    Another aspect of concreteness I
>>>                                    think I detect is the role of the
>>>                                    concept of the astral as part of
>>>                                    what is apparently an elaborate
>>>                                    system of psychological and social
>>>                                    concepts that can be used to
>>>                                    describe, explain and predict
>>>                                    human behavior.  I think of that
>>>                                    endeavor as 'concrete' because I
>>>                                    can't think of anything people
>>>                                    like to talk about more!   And the
>>>                                    concept of the astral seems to
>>>                                    clearly enable that kind of
>>>                                    conversation.  (And it is much
>>>                                    catchier than "higher mental
>>>                                    functions," don't you think?)
>>>
>>>                                    The babalawo describes the astral
>>>                                    as luck, as stability, as being
>>>                                    potentially negative, of having
>>>                                    your astral or your luck stolen,
>>>                                    as enveloping or being enveloped,
>>>                                    etc.  Many complex possibilities
>>>                                    and configurations are indicated
>>>                                    in a single stream of
>>>                                    explanations.  Like concepts such
>>>                                    as karma, soul, aura, etc. there
>>>                                    seems to be some long-developed
>>>                                    knowledge about the nature of
>>>                                    human relations contained in the
>>>                                    concept of the astral.  But I
>>>                                    can't quite put this implicit
>>>                                    knowledge into explicit words.
>>>
>>>
>>>                                    - Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>                                    On Feb 21, 2012, at 1:57 PM,
>>>                                    Martin Packer wrote:
>>>
>>>                                        I was hoping someone might
>>>                                        analyze this passage for me,
>>>                                        but I guess I'll have to do it
>>>                                        myself!
>>>
>>>                                        Much of the babalawo's talk
>>>                                        takes the form of advice,
>>>                                        recommendations, obligations
>>>                                        for the future conduct of the
>>>                                        client. What she has to do, or
>>>                                        ought to do, includes “go to
>>>                                        the church and make mass for
>>>                                        you deceased relatives,” “look
>>>                                        after your mother, by phone,”
>>>                                        “arrange a sacrifice,” “pray,”
>>>                                        “wear your hair loose,” and so
>>>                                        on. In the excerpt above, the
>>>                                        advice is to stop lending her
>>>                                        clothes.
>>>
>>>                                        It is worth considering in
>>>                                        detail the way this advice is
>>>                                        offered. In this excerpt it is
>>>                                        grounded in what “Orula says”
>>>                                        (93) but immediately a warrant
>>>                                        is added: “because that is
>>>                                        stealing your luck” (we have
>>>                                        translated suerte as ‘luck,’
>>>                                        but it could equally be
>>>                                        ‘fate’). This is then
>>>                                        clarified, and then the
>>>                                        babalawo recommends to the
>>>                                        client that she make her own
>>>                                        observation; if she does so,
>>>                                        she will see that her sister,
>>>                                        who on occasion uses her
>>>                                        clothes, is happy, content,
>>>                                        while she, the client, is not
>>>                                        (94-96). This is presented as
>>>                                        an empirical demonstration of
>>>                                        the Orula’s point: due to the
>>>                                        fact that her sister has worn
>>>                                        her clothes, the client’s
>>>                                        astral has been stolen. It
>>>                                        also counters a possible
>>>                                        rebuttal: the “If not…” can be
>>>                                        glossed as “If you don’t
>>>                                        believe me, consider this…”
>>>                                        The consequence of this is
>>>                                        that the client is unhappy,
>>>                                        while her sister is happy. The
>>>                                        babalawo then offers
>>>                                        additional clarification,
>>>                                        “because…” one can wash ones
>>>                                        clothes a hundred times, the
>>>                                        astral of the person who wore
>>>                                        them cannot be removed
>>>                                        (96-98). This displays a
>>>                                        counter to a possible
>>>                                        qualification that the loss of
>>>                                        one’s astral might be
>>>                                        prevented by the simple
>>>                                        expedient of washing the
>>>                                        clothes that have been
>>>                                        borrowed. Then he adds what
>>>                                        could be taken as an appeal to
>>>                                        his authority, or a
>>>                                        confirmation that he himself
>>>                                        lives by the advice he is
>>>                                        offering to her: “We, the
>>>                                        religious, don’t loan our
>>>                                        clothing…” (98). This
>>>                                        functions as backing to the
>>>                                        validity of the central
>>>                                        claims. He elaborates further;
>>>                                        not only clothing should not
>>>                                        be shared, but also shoes,
>>>                                        towels, soap. Nor do they do
>>>                                        the reciprocal: they don’t
>>>                                        “wear the clothes of another
>>>                                        person” (101), this countering
>>>                                        the possible objection that if
>>>                                        the effect works one way, it
>>>                                        ought to work in the opposite
>>>                                        direction, but this has not
>>>                                        been mentioned.
>>>
>>>                                        The passage displays a complex
>>>                                        and subtle argumentative
>>>                                        organization. It starts with
>>>                                        the central claim, then a
>>>                                        warrant (“because…”), then a
>>>                                        more explicit statement of the
>>>                                        mechanism that is claimed to
>>>                                        be operating (“wear someone’s
>>>                                        clothes… steals their luck”),
>>>                                        then it counters a possible
>>>                                        rebuttal, then counters a
>>>                                        possible qualification. Then a
>>>                                        backing is provided, and a
>>>                                        further warrant. Finally,
>>>                                        another possible qualification
>>>                                        is countered.
>>>
>>>                                        Recall Toulmin's model of
>>>                                        argument:
>>>
>>>
>>>                                        <Toulmin.pdf>
>>>                                        On Feb 21, 2012, at 9:54 AM,
>>>                                        Martin Packer wrote:
>>>
>>>                                            Steve mentioned the
>>>                                            presentation I gave at
>>>                                            ISCAR, on a study
>>>                                            conducted by a student
>>>                                            here in Colombia (Silvia
>>>                                            Tibaduisa) of the
>>>                                            babalawo. I discussed an
>>>                                            excerpt from a divination
>>>                                            session; here it is:
>>>
>>>                                            Let me ask a little
>>>                                            question. You live in a
>>>                                            aparte-studio... in an
>>>                                            apartment, with other
>>>                                            people. What person wears
>>>                                            your clothing?
>>>
>>>                                            Yes. Sometimes my cousin
>>>                                            or my sister uses them
>>>
>>>                                            Orula says not to lend
>>>                                            your clothes any more,
>>>                                            because that is stealing
>>>                                            your luck. That the person
>>>                                            who wears someone’s
>>>                                            clothes steals their
>>>                                            astral, steals their luck.
>>>                                            If not, make an
>>>                                            observation yourself, of
>>>                                            how your cousin lives and
>>>                                            how you live. She's all
>>>                                            happy, all content, and
>>>                                            you’re not. That is how
>>>                                            someone’s luck, stability,
>>>                                            leaves them. Because
>>>                                            [when] one lends their
>>>                                            astral, although one
>>>                                            washes it 100 times, it
>>>                                            takes holds of the astral
>>>                                            of the other person as
>>>                                            well, and if it’s a
>>>                                            negative astral, it also
>>>                                            includes one. We, the
>>>                                            religious, don’t loan our
>>>                                            clothing, we don’t bathe
>>>                                            with the same towel or the
>>>                                            same soap. We don’t lend
>>>                                            underwear, socks, shoes,
>>>                                            anything. Because these
>>>                                            are one's personal things
>>>                                            and that takes hold of
>>>                                            your astral. Nor wear the
>>>                                            clothes of another person.
>>>
>>>                                            The English reads a little
>>>                                            oddly because I prefer
>>>                                            literalish translations.
>>>                                            There are a number of
>>>                                            interesting
>>>                                            characteristics to this
>>>                                            exchange, but I want to
>>>                                            focus on the reasoning
>>>                                            involved. I would suggest
>>>                                            that it is perfectly
>>>                                            recognizable to us.
>>>                                            Substitute a more familiar
>>>                                            premise: not "when someone
>>>                                            wears your clothes they
>>>                                            steal your astral" but
>>>                                            "when someone uses your
>>>                                            toothbrush they give you
>>>                                            bacteria" and the rest
>>>                                            follows logically, doesn't
>>>                                            it?
>>>
>>>                                            Martin
>>>
>>>                                            ______________________________
>>>                                            ____________
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>>> *listinfo/xmca <http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                                        ______________________________**
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>>>                                        xmca mailing list
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>>>                                        <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>                                        http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**
>>> listinfo/xmca <http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                                    ______________________________**
>>> ____________
>>>                                    _____
>>>                                    xmca mailing list
>>>                                    xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>                                    <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>                                    http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**
>>> listinfo/xmca <http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                            --                             Tamara Powell
>>>                            tjpowell@ucsd.edu
>>>                            <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**gmail.com<tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                    --                     Tamara Powell
>>>                    tjpowell@ucsd.edu <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**
>>> gmail.com <tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>            --             Tamara Powell
>>>            tjpowell@ucsd.edu <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**gmail.com<tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    --     Tamara Powell
>>>    tjpowell@ucsd.edu <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**gmail.com<tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>> ------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>>
>>
>


-- 
Tamara Powell
tjpowell@ucsd.edu <tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>

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