Re: [xmca] schools-without-computers-by-choice-and-conviction-that-they-dont-help-kids

[Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>]

What is there in social life that we can talk about that is not "fantasy"?

And, connecting to the other thread, is "alienation" fantasy? (maybe more
of a phantasmagoria? (to play with Marx's camera obscura metaphor a bit)).

-greg
p.s. for those interested in what I'm after here, I'm trying to cut a path
between Marx's humanism and Max Stirner's nihilism - to recognize the
importance of "fantasy" (something that seems to have no place in Marx's
thinking) without falling into a subjective idealism (where Stirner ends
up). Walking a razor's edge?
On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>wrote:

> On 12 November 2011 20:48, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Huw,
> >
> > I get the basic idea of where you are coming from with this. I'm familiar
> > with Paul Willis' use of the unfortunate term "penetrations" in his book
> > Learning to Labo(u)r. It is quite similar to Bourdieu's notion of being
> > able to see through ideology and into the "real" relations between things
> > (my scare quotes around real). I see both Willis and Bourdieu as
> developing
> > Marxist ideas.
> >
>
> I don't recall coming across the phrase in literature, so be assured I
> wasn't using it as term.
>
>
> >
> > Having said that, I still have some concerns (aside from the unfortunate
> > term "penetrations"). My concern is that there is a posited "real" that
> the
> > critical critic has available to them that is not available to others
> > (maybe we would say that he has the intellectual "equipment" to
> "penetrate"
> > reality). I don't have a problem with the idea that the critical critic
> has
> > a different and useful perspective on things, I just don't agree that we
> > should speak of this in terms of a better grasp of reality.
> >
> > Instead, I would say that the critical critic has a better perspective
> FOR
> > some particular ends. But I'm not convinced that it is necessarily
> because
> > their perspective is "more real" or closer to reality. It depends on what
> > reality, and what for.
> >
> >
>
> "Perspectives is 'more real'" reads like a typological error to me.  The
> means of representing perspectives are inherently real, by virtue of their
> being represented.  It is the truthfulness of the existence of the
> realities they represent which is the point.   The representation of a
> fantasy is very real, but the thing pointed to by this representation is
> not, it is questionable, and this questioning entails the logic of
> truthfulness.  Likewise the 'very real effect' of a fantasy does not refer
> to the reality of the thing pointed to by the fantasy, it refers to the
> real effect of a real representation.
>
> Huw
>
>
>
>
>
> > Elsewhere Bourdieu notes that misrecognition ("misknowing" - i.e.,
> > meconnaissance) is absolutely essential to social life. Misrecognition is
> > at the heart of meaning - without it we encounter a meaningless, lifeless
> > world. So I'd suggest that it is better to be honest about our
> shortcomings
> > when it comes to reality. Better to ask what a given way of "seeing" is
> > good for. What does it allow us to see and do?
> >
> > -greg
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 1:13 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > On 27 October 2011 22:14, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 27 October 2011 20:56, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On 27 October 2011 20:47, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> > > >wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Huw,
> > > >>> Is reality really something to be "penetrated."
> > > >>> -greg
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> If you wish to get from one side of a city to another, there are
> > finite
> > > >> ways of doing so using conventional transport.  If you wish to
> > > articulate
> > > >> that intention in terms of a particular route, you will have to
> > mentally
> > > >> penetrate the fog of obstacles from A to B prior to an accurate
> > > >> articulation.  Does 'penetrating to reality' sound better?
>  Hopefully
> > > the
> > > >> gist is clear.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > > ... but that also the intention successfully acted upon is a change
> and
> > > > thereby a form of penetrating reality.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > I thought this loose-end might be helpful.  Bourdieu, in 'Distinction'
> > > p387, expressed this aspect:
> > >
> > > "What the relation to 'mass' (and, a fortiori, 'elite') cultural
> products
> > > reproduces, reactivates and reinforces is not the monotony of the
> > > production line or office but social relation which underlies
> > working-class
> > > experience of the world, whereby his labour and the product of his
> > labour,
> > > opus proprium, present themselves to the worker as opus alienum,
> > > 'alienated' labour.
> > >
> > > i.e. the difference between a participatory, intentionally influential
> > > relation and a passive one.
> > >
> > > Huw
> > > __________________________________________
> > > _____
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> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar
> > Department of Communication
> > University of California, San Diego
> > __________________________________________
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> >
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-- 
Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar
Department of Communication
University of California, San Diego
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