Andy
Yes, the "ideas" are like horse drawn carriages but the intensity of
the motivations and relational dynamics generated within these various
debates on the "force" of these various "genres" is what I still see
being replayed through re-collections that loose sight of being
re-collections not "truth" Also psychodynamics must move beyond 2
person plus genre debates but this is happening in some arenas.
Larry
Larry
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:56 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
Sure, there is a relational turn in psychoanalysis, and Donald
Winnicott's "transitional object" explicitly introduces mediation,
but to me, these are a bit like horse drawn carriages, if you get
my meaning.
Andyh
Larry Purss wrote:
Hi Andy
I want to give a concrete idea of mediation in contrast to
billiard balls [from psycoanalysis]
Freud was commited to a "scientific" billiard ball version of
psychology. His ediface was HIS having discovered THE truth
with a topological map of id ego and superego. He was totally
invested in this particular "genre" or "text" and took the
position of being an "expert" [having knowledge OF] that he
USED to GIVE insight to others [in the form of the genre.
Ferenzci, who is often seen as a source of the "relational"
turn in psychoanalysis, in contrast had a different
relationship TO psychoanalysis [as a genre]. He saw the
person [client] and the [genre] in mutual relationship and he
was in a position to "mediate" between the genre or text and
the person. A mediational triangle [2 person and one genre]
You can imagine the tensions that were generated between Freud
and Ferenzci with this different relationship to "truth" and
"mediation"
My question is if there are various relations that can be
operationalized in relation to dialectical materialism as
"truth" or as a "genre" with a developmental/historical
geneology? Mike C. mentioned he believes we are currently
re-collecting the various genres or texts that were previously
played out in the last few centuries. I agree, and we loose
sight of the historical sources of these contrasting genres
[that were formed within particular social organizations] We
can start with the genres or we can start with the social
organization or we start with the way persons mediate between
the social relations & genres [spaces of ????] Mediation as
KNOWLEDGEABILITY [in contrast to knowledge]
Larry
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 11:54 PM, Andy Blunden
<ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
Haydi, when the Frankfurt School began in 1923, and set up
their
"Communist University," their aim was to have all the different
disciplines working together, in particular philosophers,
sociologists and psychologists. Things in Germany didn't
work out
so well, and that program never really got going. Having
philosophers and sociologists and psychologists
appropriating each
others' work remained a goal though. However, the Frankfurters
were philosophers, and never got beyond Freud and Mead in
psychology. The current generation of Critical Theorists are
absorbed in using scraps of Mead and Freud together with a
Hegel-without-mediation (build on the master-servant
relation). As
a result, they see social life as a kind of billiard table,
just
like liberals do, and in fact Habermas is now in 100% agreement
with John Rawls.
Hegel and Vygotsky have in common many things but in particular
they share an understanding of the importance of mediation.
It is
mediation which provides mechanism of how social theory can and
must be based in psychology and vice versa. But the thing
is that
it is not enough to operate with generalisations like this. The
original program of the Frankfurt School mean that critical
theory
has to draw on the /real practical and empirical knowledge of
psychologists/, not just specualtive theory. So it is vitally
important for us who are interested in social change,
politics and
revolution to listen to what the real, hand-on, practical,
working
psychologists are talking about.
OK?
Andy
Haydi Zulfei wrote:
Andy ! Thank you for the short lead . Flattering aside
, I've
always seen you do your best to put things on right
track if
deviated . This way principles are secured rather than
compromised . I do know I need more and more readings .
However , one at times feels we're moving along two
extremes .
However , I'm almost known to your investigation of
"project"
. I'm sure others , too , are expecting more to come .
Best
Haydi
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>
*To:* "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
<xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
*Sent:* Tuesday, 11 October 2011, 3:45:25
*Subject:* Re: [xmca] Activity and interpsychological
aspects
of CHAT
Hajdi, I will limit my comments to why I praise
Vygotsky as a
great Marxist, and at the same time I claim that my main
interest is in social
change, and not learning or psychological problems as such.
It is true that Vygotsky never ventured into the domain of
social theory
as such. I think the problems facing anyone wanting to
do that in
Stalin's USSR were very great, whether they were loyal
to the
Party or
not. But he laid the foundations. He showed how
consciousness
is formed
in a person's interactions. The wider society participates
directly in
an individual's interactions because we must use
products of
the culture
in everything we do, we do not invent a language when
we meet
someone,
we use the existing language, and everything else the
culture
provides.
Vygotsky lacked one thing, in my view, that is the
source of
motivation
for actions, which, as AN Leontyev correctly showed,
lies in the
activity of which our action is a part. But in
following ANL
in studying
activities, I prefer to retain the methodological core of
Vygotsky's
work (which ANL did not, in my view) and take the
activity as
a unit of
analysis. This is of course exactly what ANL claimed to
have
achieved,
but I think he did not really understand this concept
of unit of
analysis, and his analysis suffered from problems as a
result.
Engestrom
set out to address these problems. Some of them he
resolved,
but I think
in other ways, he moved further away from a solution. These
are all open
questions. But my aim is to reconstruct an Activity Theory
which is more
true to the foundations laid by Vygotsky. The purpose
of such an
activity theory is to fight capitalism and make a better
world, that's all.
OK?
Andy
Haydi Zulfei wrote:
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>>
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
<xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>>
> Sent: Sunday, 9 October 2011, 16:16:53
> Subject: [xmca] Activity and interpsychological
aspects of CHAT
>
>
> Hi Haydi
>
>
> I'm responding to your concern that activity and the
larger
macro level is
>
> being overshadowed by the more personal and
interpsychological aspects of
>
> CHAT.
>
> **1.
> a. Andy , besides his other activities is the editor
of the
MCA . He said in his view Vygotsky was a GREAT marxist .
> b. I repeat the Activity Theory , to all evidence ,
has its
roots in Marxism .
> c. I emphasized on distinguishing between
"individual" and
"personal" in discussing CHAT .
> d. Yes , I believe [[...I believe activity (proper)
and the
larger macro level is being overshadowed by the more
(individual)and interpsychological aspects of CHAT . ]]
>
> You should have heard about the "leading activity"
and the
corresponding hiararchy of motives . Usually , discussion
focuses on "any" activity ; leaving the macro-social
aside ,
discussing what happens within the sphere of hygiene ,
let's
say , while every pollution and
> corruption is downstreaming from the top in a global
capitalist
> formation .
>
> Leontyev himself ansers no need to quote Wertsch : " A
division of the function of sense formation
> and simple stimulation between motives of one and the
same
activity makes it
> possible to understand the principal relationships
characterizing the
> motivational sphere of personality: the relationships
of the
hierarchy of motives.This hierarchy is not in the least
constructed on a
> scale of their proximity to the vital (biological)
needs in
a way similar to
> that which Maslow, for
> example, imagines: [1.The
> necessity for maintaining physiological homeostasis
is the
basis for the
> hierarchy; the motives for self-preservation are higher,
next, 3.confidence and prestige; finally, at the top of
> the hierarchy, motives of 4.cognition
> and aesthetics]. The principal problem that arises
here is
not to what
> extent the given scale (or another similar to it) is
right
but how proper the
> principle of such scaling is in itself. The fact is that
neither the degree of
> proximity to biological needs nor the degree of
capacity to
stimulate nor the
> affectiveness of one motive or another determines the
hierarchical relationship
> between them. These
> relationships are determined by the connections that the
activity of the
> subject brings about, by their mediations, and for this
reason, they are
> relative. This refers also to the principal
correlation - to the
> correlation between sense-forming
> motives and motive-stimuli." **
>
>
> I must accept my part in turning the conversations in
this
direction
>
> as my curiosity does orient more to the
interpsychological
aspects of
>
> cultural historical theory.
>
> **2. Yes , quite true ! You're quite free to forget about
all principles of the ideology of Vygotsky and the
TROIKA AND
THE PYATERKA , Davydov , etc. down to V.P.Zinchndo
Junior who
has begun to repudiate His father's findings and whom
Mike ,
as Guest Editor of JREEP , has talked about and
brought forth
some of His writings . But one thing is crucial : By
orienting
on "interpsychological" , you jump then to
"intersubjectivity"
and "agency" and begin to discuss in a way as if agency is
determined within intersubjectivity . Just plz answer
how in
what way within intersubjectivity in the absence of any
activity and action . an agentive element rises up ; in
other
words just at the level of "semiotics" and without
furthering
up to the all interactions and upheavals and incidences ,
events , if one can reach the powerfulness of beginning
to act
which satisfies an urgent or distant need . Dialogue
could be
most effective while in the direction of a goal
> chosen for the action and in the direction of an
activity
most important at any moment which the social relations
dictates . **
>
>
> Wertsch writing about Leontiev suggests his
>
> focus was on how it is possible to assimilate the
"experience of mankind" as
>
> a foundation for building activity theory grounded in
Marx's
ideas about
>
> subject-object interaction.
>
> **In my last message , I referred to this point and
there is
enough in the quote above about this matter . The passage I
sent which was confirmed as related to the perezhivanie
also
has enough to say about that . Then no more discussion . **
>
>
> Wertsch suggests that Leontiev's notion of
>
> activity does extend Vygotsky's focus on the
inteprsychological to the macro
>
> account of social interaction.
>
> **No , Let's never forget that the title of Vygotsky's
MAGNUM OPUS is "Thinking and Speech" . And if he was
and is a
great marxist , he knows that speech is born withing the
process of Labour requiring a tool . And I said about the
hiararchy of MOTIVES and that even this same hiararchy is
bound to subordinate itself to the requirements of
ACTIVITY .
Activity is Molar and non-divisible in regard to its
MOMENTS . **
>
>
> Wertsch acknowledges this extension is
>
> necessary to give a more complete account of cultural
historical processes.
>
> However, Wertsch suggests in the move to this macro level
Leontiev did not
>
> incorporate many of Vygotsky's insights about
interpsychological functioning
>
> and semiotic mediation. In other words Vygotsky did not
produce a complete
>
> account of how INTRApsychological and INTERpsychological
planes of
>
> functioning are tied to social INSTITUTIONAL factors.
This
extension to
>
> social institutional processes is required to go beyond
microsociological
>
> and interpsychological functioning to become a
fullfledged
analysis of mind
>
> in society.
>
>
> **To give the MOST complete account of
"cultural-historical"
processes , you should , first of all , give the most
comprehensive account of man's life on the Earth . Man is
material not semiotic and leads a material life not a
semiotic
one ; he uses semiotics because he has stored tons of
actions
and events and operations behind them . Then his best
and most
effective accounts consist of enumerating the actions and
activities he has gone through . And these were to
produce His
history and his culture ; when no history and no
culture were
on , activities and actions were and were for man to
survive .
Yes to history and culture but on a final count , and
with all
the results emanating from them , they have a material
BASE :
MATERIAL ACTIVITY .
>
> I prefer to script SOCIAL institutional factors . You
quite
invulantarily and repeatedly get back to Micro-Social .
Marxism has Classes and Division of Classes . And their
Struggle for Power . In a not developed society in which
Classes have not come to have distinct boundaries ,
groupings
, layers , guilds , communities of practice , maybe
habituses
come to the surface and begin maneuvering . And we
judge about
a revolution be the Nature of the State . Leontyev has a
discussion about if internals act through the externals or
vice versa . He gives his example with S.L. Rubinstein who
believes externals act through the internals . L asks what
these internals are and how they act on the externals .
In my
last message I noted : TRANSFORMATIONS WITHIN , MUST OF
NECESSITY HAVE THEIR LOOKS WITHOUT . Do you have anything
other than Heredity and Lived Experience in the Internal ?
These have been discussed by Leontyev . And I gave you my
coloured / marked
> version of A.C.P . It is a gist of lots and lots of
reading
. And I don't know if Mind comes with the Birth ; What
is it ?
If it is fixed or liable to change . And where do
Marxists put
Mind in their structure of Philosophy or Psychology .
And if
we act in such a way to take some blocks of heredity and
others of our lived experience and try to build our VITAL
EXPERIENCE upon them like putting stones upon stones ; then
what about sublimation : TO RETAIN AND RESOLVE THE OLD
IN THE
NEW . **
>
> More than for one message .
> Cheers
> Haydi
>
> Haydi, I wanted to open with Wertsch's comments to
acknowledge the
>
> centrality of these macro levels on the formation of
mind.
However, in my
>
> work and in my personal life I'm pulled to focus more
on the
>
> interpsychological explorations of social
organization. The
notion of
>
> extending the concept of "psychological tools" to the
broader notion of
>
> "tool KITS' points to the recognition of multiple
genres or
"texts" as
>
> various tools to be used in the tool kit to understand
social organization.
>
> These tool kits offer a variety of options about what is
permissible or
>
> appropriate to include in our accounts and bias our
narratives towards
>
> different planes of social organization. Selecting a
particular genre from
>
> the tool kit places CONSTRAINTS on what can be said
and how
it can be
>
> expressed. From a cultural historical perspective the
particular genre
>
> chosen is itself open for exploration and critique.
>
> The issue of these genres or texts and how they are
chosen
or selected as
>
> mediational means is itself an object for analysis within
CHAT. Also these
>
> various tools in the tool kit are themselves constantly
evolving and
>
> interacting. Activity theory at the macro level is
influenced by
>
> explorations of texts written with an interpsychological
focus. Vladimir
>
> Zinchenko is exploring phenomena at the
microstructural and
microgenetic
>
> level where perception and action are related below the
level of awareness
>
> outside accessibility to introspection. But he suggests
these microgenetic
>
> processes follow phases, stages, of genetic development.
This is at a level
>
> of the intrapsychological.
>
> My mentioning "active experience" was at the
interpsychological level of
>
> analysis. Active experience contrasted with "habits" in
Dewey's language of
>
> social organization. Active experience is when RUPTURES
occur in the
>
> habitual ways of responding within interpsychological
socially organized
>
> spaces. How we account for these ruptures depends on the
tools in our tool
>
> kit that we use as explanations and interpretations and
justifications.
>
> Different tools lead to different accounts.
>
> The question of how we come to share collective
memories of
shared
>
> experiences at the interpsychological and activity levels
BUT also how we
>
> incorporate "active experience" as RUPTURING
experiences of
collective
>
> memory is also requiring consideration.
>
>
> Haydi. as Andy mentioned, I'm one of those hesitant to
express my opinions
>
> at the political level. My positions on social
justice tool
kits [genres]
>
> such as discussions of "dominant" and "nondominant"
genres
is tentative. The
>
> book Vygotsky in the 21st Century suggests the authors in
that book are
>
> taking an "outlier" position on CHAT genres. They are
exploring the
>
> interpsychological genres of CHAT. They are engaging
with
themes of
>
> dominant and nondominant genres and the constraints
imposed
by various tools
>
> in the tool kit. I think my exploring "alterity" is
exploring similar themes
>
> and has its own biases, constraints, and blind spots.
>
> Haydi, your thoughts have made me reflective on the
larger
issues I may be
>
> neglecting in my exploring the interpsychological.
>
>
> Larry
>
> __________________________________________
>
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--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Joint Editor MCA:
http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
Book:
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*Andy Blunden*
Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
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