Hi Mike, These are not my words. It is an excerpt of the book that I've managed to get from http://www.cambridge.org I send in attachment the pdf file with the excerpt. On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 1:06 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks a LOT, Ivo. Very interesting. > > Could you help out with your final comment, because I really do not know to > whom you are referring when you write: > > Written right at the end of his life, this text presents a number of new > ideas that do not fit comfortably into the standard Vygotsky mould. Here he > pushes back further and deeper into the innermost functions of the human > mind and > makes provision for developmental processes that originate and move from > the inside to the outside. This may be a message that some contemporary > Vygotsky spokespersons would prefer to overlook. > > Could you please indicate who the spokespersons are and provide us some > references to help us fill out our understanding? Is this Norris Minnick? > I ask because what struck me in the footnote was a kind of echo of people > like John Lucy, who was also a close colleague of Jim Wertsch; the echo > I hear is the dialogue with Whorf. > > I interpret Vygotsky's use of the metaphor of e-vapor-ation in light of > recent reading > I have been doing of William James and the pragramatists in the book, *The > Metaphysical Club, *as well as Tim Ingold using both Merleau-Ponty and > Gibson (Seems like a lot of people interested in M-P these days, I sure > am). > In "that context" the image that came to my mind was the environmental flow > associated with movement (In Ingold/Gibson) or the stream of consciousness > metaphor that James > uses. > > I am guessing that what the editors might have been doing was preserving > some > vestige of sense, some vesiges of "pattern in the flow" that bespeaks the > presence > of the word. > > So, which spokespeople should we interrogate? Who might be made uneasy by > such a discussion and why? > > mike > > On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 4:23 PM, Ivo Banaco <ibanaco@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Following David take, this is an illustration of what this "vygotsky in > > perspective" could be. The following is an excerpt of the introduction: > > > > The Collected Works and editorial comment > > > > The thought that editorial comment may be more intrusive than necessary > > arrived unannounced in my head while reading the chapter entitled > ‘Thought > > and word’ in Volume I of the Collected Works of L. S. Vygotsky (1987). > The > > editors have inserted a rather odd footnote in relation to an important > > passage in which Vygotsky is comparing inner speech and external speech. > > He makes the point that whereas inner speech is speech for oneself, > > external > > speech is for others and they are different in kind. The presence or > > absence > > of > > vocalization is a consequence of the functional differences between the > two > > kinds of speech. He continues the discussion as follows (p. 257): > > External speech is a process of transforming thought into word; it is the > > materialization and objectivization of thought. Inner speech moves in > > the reverse direction, from without to within. It is a process that > > involves > > the evaporation of speech in thought. This is the source of the structure > > of inner speech, the source of all that structurally differentiates it > from > > external speech. > > The editors’ footnote refers to the expression ‘evaporation of speech in > > thought’ and they comment as follows (p. 257): > > It is apparent from the context that in using the expression ‘evaporation > > of speech in thought’, Vygotsky is referring to a qualitative change in > > the speech process with the act of thought, not to the disappearance of > > the word. > > The editors’ comment is odd for a number of reasons, not the least of > > which is that it does not seem to be correct. It is not clear what they > > mean > > by > > the ‘context’. From the surrounding sentences it does indeed seem that > > Vygotsky is referring to the disappearance of the word, and the same > seems > > to be the case going backwards and forwards in the paragraphs of the > text. > > In > > fact, towards the end of the chapter, Vygotsky returns to this point and > > again > > uses the same expression of the ‘evaporation of speech in thought’ and he > > continues as follows (p. 280): > > However, where external speech involves the embodiment of thought in > > the word, in inner speech the word dies away and gives birth to thought. > > With the word dying away, in Vygotsky’s own words and context, the > > editors’ contrary claim that the word does not disappear seems dubious. > But > > the issue is not simply whether or not the editors are correct. The > > question > > arises of why the editors thought it necessary at this particular point > to > > assist > > the reader to understand the text given that this is not a translation > > matter or > > an editorial matter but a matter of interpretation that is usually, and > for > > good > > reason, left to the reader. The comment is odd because it attempts to > > explain > > the text by referring not to some hidden or additional information > > available > > to > > the editors, but to the very same text and context that the reader has > just > > encountered. If that context serves to give an expression a particular > > meaning > > then the reader should be able to ascertain this without any special help > > from > > the editors. It is also odd because, on the one hand, it simply explains > > what the > > word ‘evaporate’ means (qualitative change) but, on the other hand, tries > > to > > undo the meaning of the word. When water evaporates it changes its state > > from liquid to vapour (hence to e-vaporate) and, in the process, the > liquid > > does indeed disappear or, to use Vygotsky’s phrase, ‘dies away’. There is > > no > > reason for us to assume that Vygotsky either did not understand the > meaning > > of the word ‘evaporate’ or that he was careless in his use of the word. > On > > the > > contrary, given that he later in the chapter uses the exact same > expression > > again > > and in the same context, it seems likely that he did know and appreciate > > what > > he was saying.4 If this is the case, then it would appear that it is the > > editors who > > are misreading the text and, perhaps, unintentionally misusing their > > editorial > > authority by stamping a particular interpretation of their own on the > text. > > Written right at the end of his life, this text presents a number of new > > ideas that > > do not fit comfortably into the standard Vygotsky mould. Here he pushes > > back > > further and deeper into the innermost functions of the human mind and > > makes provision for developmental processes that originate and move from > > the inside to the outside. This may be a message that some contemporary > > Vygotsky spokespersons would prefer to overlook. > > > > On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 12:03 AM, David Kellogg < > vaughndogblack@yahoo.com > > >wrote: > > > > > I think there are really two DIFFERENT issues here, and they can be > > easily > > > separated even though they are of course also connected. One issue is > > > translation, and the other is interpretation. > > > > > > They are both real problems. Here's page 47 of the Collected Works. > > > Vygotsky (and maybe Luria) are talking about the famous mediational > > > triangle, and "X" marks the mediational spot: > > > > > > "The mediating member, as one might imagine, is simply a method of > > > improving and perfecting the operation, having the specific function of > > > retrograde effect." > > > > > > And here's the same sentence on p. 145 of the Vygotsky Reader: > > > > > > "The intermediate link in this formula is not, as might ahve been > > supposed, > > > simply a method of improving and perfecting the operation. By possesing > > the > > > specific functions of reverse action..." > > > > > > One of these is not only wrong but terribly wrong (it's the first one, > in > > > case you were wondering). And it really does matter if we want people > to > > > take this stuff seriously. > > > > > > Interpretation is also a real problem, but it's a different problem. If > > > there were really only one meaning, only one context in which Vygotsky > > makes > > > sense, then we could forget all about him and just go back to bed, > > perchance > > > to dream of the 1960s cognitive revolution where generalizations were > > > perhaps incorrect but at least makeable. > > > > > > But translation and interpretation are not just distinct; they are also > > > linked. For example, the "mediational triangle" has usually been > expanded > > to > > > include different rules, communities, and divisions of labor. But in > > > addition to that this quotation, correctly translated, makes it clear > > that > > > it's the REVERSIBILITY of signs (that is, their DIRECT effect on the > > > SUBJECT) that gives them their psychological (and not simply their > > > sociological) properties. > > > > > > I think that putting "vygotsky in perspective" means going beyond > > invoking > > > the magical name in an incantatory way. But it also means going beyond > > > the usual academic game of killing the old prophet and annointing the > new > > > one with his blood. > > > > > > To me, it means translation for interpretation, two issues that are > > linked > > > because what we interpret does depend on how we translate, and distinct > > > because context has to be fixed in one case and flexed in the other. > > > > > > I do hope they both matter. Lensky devoted the short, storm-tossed > years > > of > > > his not-so-brilliant genius to Olga, and I guess I am going to devote > > the > > > long, grey years of my scintillating mediocrity to this. > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > Seoul National University of Education > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 7/13/11, Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu> > > > Subject: RE: [xmca] FW: vygotsky in perspective > > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> > > > Date: Wednesday, July 13, 2011, 10:10 AM > > > > > > > > > The author is new to me: > > > Ronald Miller, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa > > > Ronald Miller is Emeritus Professor in the School of Psychology at the > > > University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa. His teaching and research > > > interests have been in the field of cognitive development with a > > particular > > > focus on learning and change, especially in relation to academic > literacy > > > and access to higher education, and he has been involved in the study > of > > > Vygotsky and Piaget's theories for over 30 years. > > > > > > Is anyone familiar with his work? > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] > > On > > > Behalf Of mike cole > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 12:53 PM > > > To: Anton Yasnitsky; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] FW: vygotsky in perspective > > > > > > Seriously Anton? I was asked to review the book but had to decline for > > > ethical reasons. > > > > > > I guess if this is as good as V&V that checks me out of the game. So > > far > > > as I can tell, people like Jim Wertsch and I were SO wrong, that either > > we > > > were unbelievably stupid (in which case, what nefarious things did we > do > > to > > > be allowed to do any interpreting at all!?) or > > > we are just a bad lot. Or maybe both? > > > > > > As Peter says, it stops short of shooting! > > > mike > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 9:13 AM, Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > Thanks for posting this, Peter! > > > > > > > > > > > > The book is an absolute and unconditional treasure, a mandatory > reading > > > for > > > > anybody interested in Vygotskian issues, and, I truly believe, it > will > > > soon > > > > become a classic source, like van der Veer and Valsiner's (1991) > > > > "Understanding Vygotsky". > > > > > > > > > > > > For those interested, some excerpts are available online @ > > > > > > http://www.cambridge.org/aus/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9781107001862 > > > > > > > > Anton > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu> > > > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:29:06 AM > > > > Subject: [xmca] FW: vygotsky in perspective > > > > > > > > I just got notice of a new book on LSV: > > > > > > > > Main Author: Miller, Ronald, 1943- > > > > > > > > Title: Vygotsky in perspective / Ronald Miller. > > > > > > > > Primary Material: Book > > > > > > > > Subject(s): Vygotskii, L. S. (Lev Semenovich), 1896-1934. > > > > Psychologists Soviet Union. > > > > Psychology Soviet Union History. > > > > > > > > Publisher: Cambridge, UK ; New York : Cambridge University > > Press, > > > > 2011. > > > > > > > > Description: xiii, 451 p. : ill. ; 24 cm. > > > > > > > > Notes: Includes bibliographical references and index. > > > > "Lev Vygotsky has acquired the status of one of > the > > > > grand > > > > masters in psychology. Following the English > > > > translation > > > > and publication of his Collected Works there > has > > > been > > > > a > > > > new wave of interest in Vygotsky accompanied by > a > > > > burgeoning of secondary literature. Ronald > Miller > > > > argues > > > > that Vygotsky is increasingly being 'read' and > > > > understood through secondary sources and that > > > > scholars > > > > have claimed Vygotsky as the foundational > figure > > > for > > > > their own theories, eliminating his most > > > distinctive > > > > contributions and distorting his theories. > Miller > > > > peels > > > > away the accumulated layers of commentary to > > > provide > > > > a > > > > clearer understanding of how Vygotsky built and > > > > developed his arguments. In an in-depth > analysis > > of > > > > the > > > > last three chapters of Vygotsky's book Thinking > > and > > > > Speech, Miller provides a critical > interpretation > > > of > > > > the > > > > core theoretical concepts that constitute > > > Vygotsky's > > > > cultural-historical theory, including the > > > development > > > > of > > > > concepts, mediation, the zone of proximal > > > > development, > > > > conscious awareness, inner speech, word meaning > > and > > > > consciousness"-- > > > > > > > > Table of Contents: Machine generated contents note: 1. Introduction; > 2. > > A > > > > thematic overview; 3. The development of > > concepts; > > > 4. > > > > The development of scientific concepts; 5. The > > > > development of scientific concepts: critique; > 6. > > > > Thought > > > > and word; 7. Michael Cole > > > > artifact mediated action: setting the record > > straight; > > > > 8. > > > > James V. Wertsch > > > > cultural tools and mediated action: getting it > > wrong; > > > 9. > > > > James V. Wertsch: mediation and the zone of > > > proximal > > > > development; 10. The essential commentators; > 11. > > > > Vygotsky: mediation. > > > > > > > > Location: On Order for Stacks > > > > Call Number: No call number available > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ================================================================================ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > University of Georgia Libraries > > > > University of Georgia > > > > Jackson St. > > > > Athens, GA 30602 > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________ > > > > _____ > > > > xmca mailing list > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > > > __________________________________________ > > > > _____ > > > > xmca mailing list > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > > > > > > __________________________________________ > > > _____ > > > xmca mailing list > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________ > > > _____ > > > xmca mailing list > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > > __________________________________________ > > > _____ > > > xmca mailing list > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > > > > __________________________________________ > > _____ > > xmca mailing list > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > > __________________________________________ > _____ > xmca mailing list > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >
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