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Re: [xmca] Kaustuv Roy and the Social Mediation of Despair



Yes, Peter and to be more accurate, Fred Foster co- wrote with the song with
 Kristofferson but the  first person to cover the song even before Janis
was
Roger Miller.

On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu> wrote:

> In the name of historical accuracy, Me and Bobbie McGee was written by
> Kristofferson and covered by Joplin, Grateful Dead, and many others.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_and_Bobby_McGee
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of mike cole
> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 11:45 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Kaustuv Roy and the Social Mediation of Despair
>
> Kristofferson is quoting Janis Joplin, Robert..... not long before she
> overdosed and exited.
> Continuing to think about esthetics and ethics, David. And thinking about
> the twists and turns of
> dao mei.  Also thinking about that money floating around just over people's
> heads. Reminds me
> of Lancasterian educational settings where candies were dangled over
> sprawling halls of kids. The candy was lowered when kids were well behaved,
> raised when they were not. A universal nightmare for the arrangement of
> massive dao mei?
> mike
>
> On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 5:57 AM, Robert Lake <boblake@georgiasouthern.edu
> >wrote:
>
> > David,
> > You never fail to set a furnished table with a feast of thought in your
> > posts. Thanks for the richness for "thinking and speech!
> >
> > I would much rather have even seeming contradictions, multiple meanings
> and
> > personal semantics  in freedom( i.e "freedom's just another word for
> > nothing
> > left to do"  Kristofferson <
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris_Kristofferson>and
> >  Foster <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Foster>) than in the (not
> that
> > far fetched) Orwellian Newspeak  word for it where freedom can ONLY mean,
> > "the dog is free of lice".
> >
> >
> > Robert
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 6:00 PM, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Well, of course, there are big differences between Jewish humor and
> > > Chinese; we Jews don't usually have quite so many pigs running around
> in
> > our
> > > jokes. Yet it seems to me that the reversible figures of hope and
> grounds
> > of
> > > despair are quite similar.
> > >
> > > Spinoza says somewhere that the only way to overcome a negative emotion
> > is
> > > through a stronger, positive one. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to
> have
> > > defined very clearly how to tell a negative emotion from a positive
> one.
> > >
> > > Worse, he doesn't really bother to tell us how to tell a stronger
> emotion
> > > from a weaker one, except for the test of Buridan's ass: when you are
> > stuck
> > > between two emotions which impell you in opposite directions, the one
> > which
> > > makes you act is the stronger one.
> > >
> > > It seems to me that a lot of Vygotsky's writing on both ethics are
> > > esthetics have, at bottom, an interesting paradox: an emotion which is
> > > actually quite weak on an individual level (say, the desire to draw a
> > > picture, something quite easily forgotten in everyday activity, or the
> > > desire to quite smoking) becomes enormously powerful on a social level.
> > >
> > > But the opposite seems equally true; an emotion that is overwhelming on
> > an
> > > individual level simply disappears when it is framed as a social one.
> It
> > > seems to me that it's for this reason that we no longer read the
> "novels
> > of
> > > conscience" that were such a big deal in the mid nineteenth century.
> > >
> > > (A brilliant Oxford graduate begins to doubt the truth of the thirty
> nine
> > > articles of the Anglican church, he is forced to give up his living,
> > > he becomes a non-conformist minister to the poor, he falls in love with
> a
> > > working class girl, dies of consumption....see what I mean? It's hard
> to
> > > even think of ONE! But "Nemesis of Faith", and "Robert Elsmere" were as
> > > famous in their time as Antonio Salieri's music was in his....)
> > >
> > > Since the nineteenth century (at least), art has really been struggling
> > > with the terrible idea that so bothered Sartre: that we humans are not
> > works
> > > of art, that we are ends and not means, that without God, man's
> existence
> > > precedes any functional purpose the non-existent God might have had in
> > mind,
> > > and man is condemned ("dao mei") to be free, where "free" is one of
> those
> > > words that means both itself and its opposite, both randomness and
> > > pointlessness and deliberateness and pointed volition.
> > >
> > > (Chinese women have menstrual periods, they use "dao mei" as a
> euphemism;
> > > it means pre-damnation in the old Protestant sense of predestination,
> and
> > > therefore LACK of choice, LACK of free will, determinism in a very
> direct
> > > and non-Spinozan sense, irrational biological determinism.)
> > >
> > > For Jews, and for Chinese people, the metaphysical double meaning of
> the
> > > word "free" is hard to understand. There are too many other people
> around
> > to
> > > worry about stuff like that, and anyway, everybody knows that what
> "free"
> > > really means: Lucky you, you don't pay this time.
> > >
> > > David Kill-hogg
> > > Seoul National University of Education
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Sat, 1/22/11, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Kaustuv Roy and the Social Mediation of Despair
> > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > Date: Saturday, January 22, 2011, 8:55 AM
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks David & David-- For pointing out Roy's work and the additional
> > > comments. It would be great if some of our Russian colleagues could
> chip
> > in
> > > with apposite examples of Russian "anekdoti" which provide interesting
> > > variations on the themes you illustrated DKe.
> > > mike
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 4:10 PM, David Kellogg <
> vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > First of all, let me wholeheartedly endorse Kaustuv Roy's book, and
> > also
> > > > his paintings, and also his new project for a community art centre.
> Roy
> > > is a
> > > > pluralist in the very best sense; not the common po-mod variety who
> > > builds
> > > > pluralism on a general lack of seriousness, or the practical sort who
> > is
> > > a
> > > > jack of all trades, but rather a deeply critical pluralist who sees
> all
> > > > paradigms as partial and no paradigm as perfect, and derives from
> > > precisely
> > > > this source the need for social mediation with everything.
> > > >
> > > > Including emotion! If you look at his paintings you can see that
> almost
> > > all
> > > > of them have some kind of ideational foreground embedded in an
> > affective
> > > > background. I was pleasantly surprised at the optimism of the
> > paintings,
> > > > since as David Kirshner remarks his book is a deeply pessimistic one.
> I
> > > am
> > > > sure that Roy's new teaching assignment agrees with him, and as Jesus
> > > Christ
> > > > says somewhere, it is better to be loved than tenured.
> > > >
> > > > And, secondly, for something (not) completely different. I'm in
> China,
> > in
> > > > my wife's hometown of Xi'an, and it's the dead of winter. The streets
> > are
> > > > dusty, people are cold and hungry, it is almost time for Spring
> > Festival,
> > > > and fabulous amounts of money are sloshing around, directly over our
> > > heads
> > > > and just out of reach.
> > > >
> > > > Just as there is a distinctively Jewish kind of humor, there is a
> > > > distinctively Chinese sort. In fact, I think the two are
> consanguinous,
> > > > although probably not on speaking terms. Here's an example, which my
> > > > sister-in-law told me the other day.
> > > >
> > > > "A farmer had two pigs. The little pig complained about the food and
> > the
> > > > accomodation, but the big pig told him that he was being ungrateful.
> > "We
> > > > have enough to eat and a warm place to sleep, we can shit anywhere we
> > > like.
> > > > All we have to do is to show our gratitude by eating and sleeping and
> > > > shitting as gratefully as we can." So the little pig and slept and
> shat
> > > as
> > > > much as a pig could, and when it came time to choose a pig for Spring
> > > > Festival slaughter, the little pig was not so little any more. As the
> > > farmer
> > > > took the pig for his table, the big pig told him that he was lucky;
> he,
> > > > the big pig, had lived there for many years and he never got invited
> to
> > > the
> > > > Spring Festival feast even once...."
> > > >
> > > > As you can see, there are some common elements with Jewish humor: the
> > > > expectation of disaster and the social mediation of despair. There
> are
> > > also
> > > > some different elements, though: the self-serving nature of gratitude
> > > > and also of injunctions to be grateful, and above all the rather
> > > un-Jewish
> > > > critique of a concept I can only call "dao mei".
> > > >
> > > > "Dao mei" means that you are damned. Your evil fate is preordained,
> and
> > > any
> > > > attempt to resist it will simply make your ignominious failure and
> > > immanent
> > > > collapse longer, more complicated, and still more undignified. It's a
> > > very
> > > > Chinese idea, as well as a Jewish one of course. But in some ways the
> > > > CRITIQUE of "dao mei" is even more Chinese.
> > > >
> > > > Here's another example:
> > > >
> > > > "A pig farmer tried to save money by raising his own corn. He bought
> > some
> > > > fertilizer to help it grow, but it was fake, so the crop died. In
> > > despair,
> > > > he bought insecticide to poison himself and his whole family at a
> > > farewell
> > > > banquet, but it was fake so everybody survived. His son was so
> > overjoyed
> > > at
> > > > the failure of the suicide attempt that he bought Chinese liquor to
> > > > celebrate. It was fake, so everybody died."
> > > >
> > > > On the face of it, this is a perfect example of "dao mei". But when
> you
> > > > really look at it, you will see that it is just like the first joke:
> > the
> > > > choices you make do matter, but the problem is that you don't have
> > quite
> > > > enough information by yourself to make them properly. The social
> > > mediation
> > > > of despair is your only hope, but it is also an endless mine of new
> > > despair.
> > > >
> > > > David Kellogg
> > > > Seoul National University of Education
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
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> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Robert Lake  Ed.D.
> > *Assistant Professor
> > Social Foundations of Education
> > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
> > Georgia Southern University
> > P. O. Box 8144
> > Phone: (912) 478-5125
> > Fax: (912) 478-5382
> > Statesboro, GA  30460
> >
> >  *Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its
> > midwife.*
> > *-*John Dewey.
> > __________________________________________
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-- 
*Robert Lake  Ed.D.
*Assistant Professor
Social Foundations of Education
Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
Georgia Southern University
P. O. Box 8144
Phone: (912) 478-5125
Fax: (912) 478-5382
Statesboro, GA  30460

 *Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its
midwife.*
*-*John Dewey.
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