[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
Re: [xmca] LSV's use of metaphor
Glad it resonates for you, David. I was not disagreeing. I was simply
stating, I guess simple mindedly stating, that I did not understand what
Robert meant by 1) the dialectical relationship between personal metaphor
creation and the processes involved in the "assimilation of terminology" and
2) how whatever #1 means, this provides an example of Vygotsky's quest for
synthesis between the disparate views of early 20th century psychology?
I think I know what is meant by #2. But what is a personal metaphor (one a
person just made up, de novo?) and what is mean by "the processes involved
in "the assimilation of terminology."?
If my confusion is a personal failure (quite likely!) drop the matter and I
will hope for enlightenment as the conversation continues. The comments just
go by too quickly for me. Now i am stuck on sense-eggs in the meaning-nest
of other psychologists!
Slow in so cal.
mike
On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 1:25 AM, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com>wrote:
> Mike--
>
> I know, I'm speaking out of turn. But let me say more. I know exactly what
> he's getting at, and I completely agree.
>
> Vygotsky is a thieving magpie, a larcenous cuckoo with meanings. I mean (by
> that ungainly metaphor) that he tends to lay his sense-eggs in the
> meaning-nests of other psychologists.
>
> Just think of:
>
> a) "aesthetic reaction" (Vygotsky laying the egg of "answerability" in
> Kornilov's reactological nest)
>
> b) "syncretic heap" (Vygotsky laying the egg of his scheme of concept
> formation based on Hegel's logic in the nest of Piagetian "syncretism".)
>
> c) "egocentric speech" (verbal thinking laid in Piaget's nest)
>
> d) "pseudoconcept" (the concept-for-others left in the nest of Stern's
> personalism)
>
> e) "structure" (the distinction between higher and lower psychological
> functions left in the next of the Gestaltists, who recognize no such
> distinction)
>
> All of these are words stolen from the lips of others, often others in
> schools to which Vygotsky is violently hostile. Think of Vygotsky's
> denunciation of Stern--in Moscow, right to his face!--using phrases from
> Moliere's "Medecin malgre lui", think of all of those long "prefaces"--to
> Thorndike, to Lazursky, to Piaget himself--that have the effect of
> converting the following book to a historical document or a negative example
> of how to proceed.
>
> The eggs lovingly laid by opponent schools are slyly tipped out for the
> snakes and rats to devour, and a completely new content is laid down
> instead. The problem is that a synthesis, for Vygotsky, does NOT mean
> splitting the difference, or "sewing a cows lips to a horse's head" (as we
> say in China). It means going in another direction entirely, hence the
> spiral.
>
> David Kellogg
> Seoul National University of Education
>
> --- On *Thu, 10/7/10, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [xmca] LSV's use of metaphor
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 7:20 PM
>
>
> You need to say more for me, Robert. How would that work?
>
> Spirals. Now there is an interesting geometric shape to consider. How did
> Bruner deploy it?
>
> mike
>
> On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Robert Lake <boblake@georgiasouthern.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>
> >wrote:
>
> > David,
> > Could the dialectical relationship between personal metaphor creation and
> > the processes involved in the "assimilation of terminology" provide an
> > example of Vygotsky's quest for synthesis between the disparate views of
> > early 20th century psychology? Or perhaps to use Bruner's metaphor of
> the
> > spiral staircase........need I say more?
> > RL
> >
> > Robert Lake Ed.D.
> > Assistant Professor
> > Social Foundations of Education
> > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
> > Georgia Southern University
> > P. O. Box 8144
> > Phone: (912) 478-5125
> > Fax: (912) 478-5382
> > Statesboro, GA 30460
> >
> > "Democracy must be born anew in every generation and education is its
> > midwife".
> > -John Dewey
> >
> > >>> David Kellogg 10/07/10 8:07 PM >>>
> > Vygotsky's metaphors are many and varied: peas in a sack (child
> concepts),
> > guerrilla warfare vs. prolonged seige (theoretical vs. empirical
> research),
> > and my all-time favorite, "science concepts do not drop into the child's
> > mouth like a flock of already roasted-pigeons".
> >
> > But it seems to me that any discussion of his use of analogy should
> include
> > his discussion of the LIMITS of metaphor. This is in the context of his
> > analogy between the learning of scientific concepts and the learing of
> > foreign language words, which can be found, in the Minick translation, in
> > Volume One, p. 223, of the Collected Works. Here's OUR translation:
> >
> > "In substance, our analogy always treats the development of two aspects
> of
> > a single and same process by their psychological nature: verbal thinking.
> In
> > the one case, that of the foreign language, what comes into the forefront
> is
> > the external, sonorous, phasal* properties of verbal thinking; in the
> other,
> > the development of scientific concepts, it is the semantic process of the
> > same process. For this reason the assimilation of a foreign language
> > doubtless requires, even though in a minimal measure, the mastery of the
> > semantic aspect of the foreign language, just as the development of
> > scientific concept requires, even to a minimal extent, some effort to
> master
> > scientific language, the symbols of science, which intervene in an
> evident
> > fashion during the assimilation of terminology and symbolic systems, such
> as
> > that of arithmetic. For this reason, one might expect from the very
> > beginning that we might find the analogy that we are developing here. Yet
> we
> > know
> > that the development of the phasal and semantic aspects of language do
> not
> > repeat themselves but follow specific ways, and so we must expect that
> our
> > analogy will prove to be incomplete like any other analogy and that the
> > assimilation of a foreign language with respect to the maternal tongue
> shall
> > present resemblances to the development of scientific concepts with
> respect
> > to that of everyday concepts in some determined relations, while in
> others
> > there will be profound differences."
> >
> > And it seems to me that there's a very SIMPLE explanation for the failure
> > of the analogy, too. Every foreign language represents, in the final
> > analysis, somebody ELSE'S everyday concepts.
> >
> > David Kellogg
> > Seoul National University of Education
> >
> > --- On Thu, 10/7/10, Achilles Delari Junior wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Achilles Delari Junior
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] LSV's use of metaphor
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 4:37 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > Well...
> >
> > I also remember that in 1929 Vygotsky compared old psychological views
> with
> > the "Comedia del'Arte", because the fixed roles of the psychic functions
> > compared to the fixed roles of the characters in that kind of drama...
> This
> > is at the paper "Concrete human psychology" in English it was published
> at
> > Soviet Psychology, 1989, v. 17, n. 2 - but I don't have my copy of the
> > English version here anymore.... only a Portuguese version. In the same
> text
> > is present also the metaphor about consciousness as telephonist in
> contrast
> > and complementation to Pavlovian metaphor about brain as telephonic
> central,
> > if I remember well... This same subject was repeatead at the book "The
> > history of development of higher mental functions" from 1931 (In Spanish
> > edition of the Works, as in Russian, it is the Volume III)... A metaphor
> > with trains and rails was used as well, in reflexological discussion, for
> a
> > comparison with Sherrignton's contributions about much more afferent ways
> > (rails) than efferent ones... but by memory I don't know more if this is
> > at that reflexological text from 1924 or from 1925... (Consciousness as
> > problem of behavior psychology). In the Psychology of Art, certainly he
> also
> > repeat the Sherington formulation, but I am not so sure about where was
> the
> > "train metaphor"... If you have interest in this "train" metaphor, I can
> > localize the actual sources, for this too...
> >
> > Best.
> >
> > Achilles.
> >
> >
> > > Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 15:05:08 -0700
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] LSV's use of metaphor
> > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >
> > > Woa, not so sure about the train track metaphor. The train moves freely
> > up
> > > and down a pre-scribed
> > > track and the only thing that can vary "independently" is speed! Brrrr.
> > > mike
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Colette Murphy wrote:
> > >
> > > > One that I like a lot:
> > > >
> > > > According to Vygotsky the teacher should be the track upon which the
> > train
> > > > coaches move freely and independently. The track only gives the
> coaches
> > the
> > > > direction of their own movement.
> > > > (Vygotsky, A Reawakened Star:
> > > > http://www.marxist.com/science-old/vygotsky_501.html)
> > > >
> > > > Best
> > > >
> > > > Colette
> > > >
> > > > Dr Colette Murphy
> > > > Senior Lecturer
> > > > School of Education
> > > > 69 University St
> > > > Queen's University
> > > > Belfast BT7 1HL
> > > >
> > > > tel: 02890975953
> > > > ________________________________________
> > > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>[
> xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>]
> On
> > Behalf
> > > > Of Robert Lake [boblake@georgiasouthern.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>
> ]
> > > > Sent: 07 October 2010 21:15
> > > > To: Culture Activity eXtended Mind
> > > > Subject: [xmca] LSV's use of metaphor
> > > >
> > > > Hi Everyone,
> > > > I am gathering the use of metaphors in Vygotsky's work for a
> > publication
> > > > and want to be sure to include as many as possible.
> > > > without any knowledge of Russian along with the fact that I have
> > > > only recently begun a serious investigation of his work.
> > > >
> > > > In her essay on Vygotsky on Thinking and Speaking in the Cambridge
> > > > companion to Vygotsky,(2007) Vera John-Steiner cites some of
> Vygotsky's
> > most
> > > > famous examples, i.e. inner speech as "speech turning inward";
> thought
> > as a
> > > > "cloud shedding a shower of words"; "consciousness is reflected in a
> > word in
> > > > a word as the sun in a drop of water". (p.151).
> > > >
> > > > Yes I know "tool" is a controversial example to some people :-).
> > > >
> > > > Can you folks think of any others ?
> > > >
> > > > Thank-you in advance for any help with this.
> > > > Robert Lake
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Robert Lake Ed.D.
> > > > Assistant Professor
> > > > Social Foundations of Education
> > > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
> > > > Georgia Southern University
> > > > P. O. Box 8144
> > > > Phone: (912) 478-5125
> > > > Fax: (912) 478-5382
> > > > Statesboro, GA 30460
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is
> its
> > > > midwife.
> > > > -John Dewey.
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca