Re: [xmca] Question

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Larry-- In an indirect sense, LSV and Mead have been in dialogue for a long
time through a common interlouctor. Mead got his PhD with Dilthey who was an
important "other" in LSV"s intellectual firmament. Certainly worth pursuing
more deeply.
mike

On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 5:58 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Elina
> I support Mike's recommendation that you look at articles by Alex Gillespie
> and Jack Martin on neo-Meadian approaches to reflexivity and
> self-consciousness.  The CENTRAL concept in  their theoretical approach is
> reflexivity or "perspective taking" which in Meadian approaches is much more
> inclusive than "cognition or thinking".  Reflexivity is a concept which
> elaborates "ORIENTATION to life worlds" and EMERGES [is not essential or
> innate] within social ACTS [with OTHER persons].  As Mike points out Mead's
> approach has many similarities with cultural-historical theory.
> You can find many articles by Gillespie at his website at Stirling
> University where he has a long list of articles posted.
>
> By engaging with Martin's and Gillespie's writings you will be introduced
> to alternative models of reflexivity and self-consciousness as they
> articulate how they believe their theoretical approach adds something new
> to modelsof the emergence of reflexivity within layers [NOT STAGES] of
> historical development.
> Your topic is also a central and guiding question for how I orient to the
> world. I LOVE to attempt to juxtapose Vygotsky and Mead as two approaches,
> which in CONVERSATION have the capacity to FORM new PERSPECTIVES on the
> centrality of reflexivity to the emergence of self-consciousness whithin
> social ACTS.
>
> Larry
>
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 7:42 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Nice to have company in a state of questioning, Elina.
>> (It was not me who linked "reflexia" to metacognition, it was grad
>> students
>> at MGU!) :-)
>>
>> About function.
>> Here I would not look to Vygotsky, but to Anokhin and Luria. But then
>> Luria
>> learned a lot from Vygotsky, so who knows.  Still, they discuss functions
>> and functional systems and the idea comes alive in their examples and
>> their
>> work. Perhaps wrongly. i am not sure. Did you and
>> Seth get into their work?
>>
>> I think it might be useful here to consider the work of Martin and
>> Gillespie
>> that Larry pointed at, and in general, "neo-Median" ideas, for the
>> development of samo-so-znanie (self-conjointly with-knowledge). Znanie is
>> a
>> noun, so maybe reflexivity could be connected with the process, not the
>> product? Not at all sure. And what would it mean for them to be completely
>> separated? (Or to be able to specify the specifics of their
>> inter-connectedness!!)
>> mike
>> mike
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Elina Lampert-Shepel
>>
>>  <ellampert@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>> > Mike -
>> > I can relate to a LOT of trouble. Both notions are used in many
>> different
>> > ways in the contexts of development and learning. A few weeks ago,
>> during
>> > Vygotsky Summer School, Gennadiy Kravtsov and I had a long conversation
>> > about my cross-cultural research on reflection or as you say "reflexia".
>> He
>> > talked about reflection/reflexivity in the context of
>> "self-consciousness"
>> > and we discussed reflexivity as a condition for the development of
>> > self-consciousness. He believes that the notion of "self-consciousness"
>> (
>> > that I distinguish from reflexivity) was never developed fully in
>> > cultural-historical tradition. Knowing that there is still lack of
>> bridge
>> > between Russian and the rest of the world cultural-historical research,
>> I
>> > wanted to learn whether there are studies that connect reflection (
>> > "reflexia") and self-consciousness. It is interesting that you mentioned
>> > both "reflexia" and "self-consciousness' in the context of
>> meta-cognition.
>> > It seems to me that learning activity theory conceptualized reflection
>> as a
>> > metacognitive process, although Vygotsky never discussed it as a
>> cognitive,
>> > or metacognitive process. There is also an important language
>> difference,
>> > Russian language doesn't have an everyday use of the word reflection, it
>> > only exists as a philosophical or psychological notion.
>> >
>> > Part of this conversation was discussion of the nature of higher
>> > psychological functions. I am still puzzled with what Vygotsky meant by
>> > function ( Seth Chaiklin and I posed this question in 2002 and as we
>> > discussed recently and are still looking for an answer...:-), but
>> Gennadi
>> > and I believe that reflection and will are not higher psychological
>> > functions. We are in the process of developing a proposal for the ISCAR
>> > symposium on these issues.
>> >
>> > In any case, I was just wondering if there are studies on the
>> development
>> > of self-consciousness and/or reflexivity that are not necessarily rooted
>> in
>> > Russian philosophical thought.
>> >
>> > As you can see, I am in the state of questioning, so directions for
>> further
>> > questioning will be highly appreciated.
>> >
>> > Elina
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 7:49 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Elina--
>> >>
>> >> I spent a great many sessions with Russian grad students who were
>> >> interested
>> >> in this issue. We had a LOT of trouble with the fact that there seem to
>> be
>> >> a
>> >> whole lot of words that appear to refer in overlapping ways with
>> >> "self-consciousness."  Terms in the family of reflectivity, reflexivity
>> >> came
>> >> up a lot among the Russian students, but they were trying hard to
>> figure
>> >> out
>> >> what the right English words were for whatever Russian term was being
>> >> used.
>> >> Not just "samo-soznanie" was used in their conversations as well, with
>> >> meta-cognition slipping in along with "reflexia."
>> >>
>> >> I am unsure what to suggest. What is occasion for the question?
>> >> mike
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Elina
>> >> >
>> >> > I wanted to express my appreciation of the quote you sign off with by
>> >> > Tagore.  It  captures the central imperative of foregrounding
>>  context
>> >> and
>> >> > traditions in the emergence of self-consciousness [the string] BUT
>> that
>> >> > without the string there is no violin.
>> >> > I find myself often reflecting on the implications this perspective
>> >> > elaborates.
>> >> >
>> >> > One suggestion I would like to suggest on the emergence of
>> >> > self-consciousness is Andy's vimeo podcast on the Historical roots of
>> >> > cultural-historical theory. [Hegel is central]
>> >> >
>> >> > Larry
>> >> > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 6:23 AM, Elina Lampert-Shepel
>> >> > <ellampert@gmail.com>wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > Hi, everyone,
>> >> > > I would appreciate if anyone can recommend publications on
>> >> > > self-consciousness in cultural-historical tradition. I am
>> interested
>> >> in
>> >> > any
>> >> > > references on this issue.
>> >> > >  Thanks in advance,
>> >> > >  Elina
>> >> > >
>> >> > > --
>> >> > > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of
>> it
>> >> and
>> >> > > it
>> >> > > responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin string
>> is
>> >> > > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my
>> violin
>> >> and
>> >> > > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin
>> >> string.
>> >> > > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
>> >> > > _______________________________________________
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of it
>> and
>> > it responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin string is
>> > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my violin and
>> > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin string.
>> > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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>>
>
>
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