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Re: [xmca] perception/conception etc



Yes, I think you are right, Mike, that it is the dialogue and interaction which is key.

On the question of scientific concepts which has popped its head up again. Scientific concepts are a narrow subclass of true concepts which are scientific because they arise as a part of scientific practice, i.e., a specific institution embedded in the life of the whole community. Over time they filter out into everyday life of course, and may lose a lot of their specifically scientific character.

The other day, I realised that complex and scientific concept are not mutually exclusive. Until 1859, biological science defined species along the lines of Mr. M'Choakumchild of Dickens' Hard Times, by their attributes, i.e., as complexes. So I think a Linnaean concept of "lion" is basically a complex. Until 1859, science had not attained a "true concept" of a species, though Goethe and Hegel had arguable presentiments of it. On the other hand, true concepts are discovered aplenty by Ed Hutchins in the legal practices of the Trobriand Islanders.

On the question of Romantic Science: although the name is obsolete, I count myself as an advocate and practitioner of Romantic science, and so should we all on this list. Romantic Science arose as a reaction to certain features of the Enlightenment to do with the conception of eternal, invariant and universal laws governing human life from the beyond. Romantic scientists of today oppose biological determinism, and the other currents of dehumanising, positivist science.

Andy

mike cole wrote:
Hi All-- I have changed the heading which has "chained" a good deal from the
topic of the header.

I did not "see" the concepts in either image, Andy, until I went back to
them and somewhere
in both cases were conversations with my wife. Everyone is temporarily abled
and simultaneously disabled, all that changes in the mix.

Those interested in pursuing the line of inquiry opened by eric might enjoy
this early article by Ed Hutchins from his work in Trobriand a while back.

http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/fe79v1n2.PDF
mike

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 10:38 AM, <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org> wrote:

Hi Michael:

thanks for the example

Laurie Anderson is an experimental performance artist that began with
spoken word pieces performed to violin and electronic effects.  As she
progressed in her artistic career she put recording "on hold" in order to
take singing and voice lessons. Had her artistic conceptions outgrown her
physical abilities?  I don't believe so because since that time she has
recorded numerous albums with exceptional voice quality.   The formal
training provided the "scientific concepts" that moved her beyond being a
spoken word artist to an exceptional musician.  Scientific concepts do
indeed appear to be born of formal academia.

eric



From:
"Michael Glassman" <MGlassman@ehe.osu.edu>
To:
"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date:
07/07/2010 12:01 PM
Subject:
RE: [xmca] comparing NewYorker images
Sent by:
xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu



Hi Eric,

Actually been thinking about this in another context.  Here is my view,

A pipe blower teaches and apprentice to build a pipe, teaches him to build
the pipe in a step by step method, the apprentice memorizes each step, and
then recreates it in building his own pipe.  But that is all the
apprentice can do, build that one single pipe following the exact same
process.  I am thinking this would be at the level of a pseudo-concept.

A pipe blower teachers an apprentice how to blow a pipe.  The pipe blower
goes through the steps but explains the intricacies of what each step
means and why it works towards the final product.  The apprentice is able
to understand (appropriate?) each of these steps and use it to create a
pipe, but also when the pipe blower wants to blow a different type of pipe
does not have to go through the same step by step process but move quickly
through the variations on the different steps.  The apprentice
understanding the meaning of the steps in the process understands quickly
and gets better and more efficient at making different types of pipes.  I
am thinking this would be everyday concepts.

A pipe blower is teaching an apprentice how to blow a pipe.  The pipe
blower teaches the properties of how the material reacts to the flame, and
what a material like glass can and cannot do at different temperatures.
The pipe blower actually concentrates on the properties of materials more
than making a pipe, believing the making of the pipe may take a much
longer time, but the apprentice now has the freedom to experiment with not
only glass, but materials and heat and can branch off to make things in
different ways.  I am thinking this would be scientific concepts.

The problem is, with the pipe blower take the time to engage in the third,
even though in the long run it is better for the community.  Probably not,
and may even think of it as being detrimetal.  That is why this type of
education needs to occur in formal schooling.

Of course once formally schooled the apprentice actually needs to go back
and learn how to make an actualy pipe - actually go back to the concrete -
and that is what allows him to go forward in the context of this new,
abstract information.

Michael

________________________________

From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
Sent: Wed 7/7/2010 11:52 AM
To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] comparing NewYorker images



perhaps this can be clarified perhaps not.

When a tribal elder teaches an apprentice to build a blow pipe is that
conveying scientific concepts or is it conveying everyday concepts?

In other words do scientific concepts only happen in a formal academic
setting?

I can accept that everyday concepts grow out of perceptions rather than
abstractions of thought.

Perhaps that is my own muddled perception on things.  For if one views
life as being perfect than one can live a perfect life.

eric



From:
mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
To:
ablunden@mira.net, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
<xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date:
07/07/2010 09:22 AM
Subject:
Re: [xmca] comparing NewYorker images
Sent by:
xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu



Yes indeed, beware empty abstractions, Andy!
And rise to the concrete if we can.
My major point in that note was that in moving between "levels" of
abstraction contained with the image, our perception, how we
"see" the constituents changes. Might this be akin to the dynamics between
scientific and everyday concepts, and/or between differently configures
systems of higher psychological functions?
mike
On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:26 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

Well, we're all hanging out for the next issue of The New Yorker now! I
feel really "exposed" by this exercise. :) In both cases I failed to see
the
cultural reference. I picked up the abstract-theoretical reference,
indeed
I'd even already used No. 2 to illustrate "Gestalt", but still failed to
see
the real-world, cultural meaning. :( Once an abstract-thinker, always an
abstract thinker, no matter how many books you read.

Andy


White, Phillip wrote:

Well, certainly, Mike, I thing that knowing the song "Love and
marriage,
love and marriage, go together like a horse and carriage. Dad would say
to
Mother, "You can't have one without the other."

So, yes, two peas in a pod, a pair of shoes, and a pair of eyes.

Phillip
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
Sender: "xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu" <xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 19:57:24 To: eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity<
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Reply-To: "lchcmike@gmail.com" <lchcmike@gmail.com>, "eXtended Mind,
Culture,
       Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [xmca] comparing NewYorker images

I want to use the occasion of martin coming late to the second of two
new
yorker covers we have
been disscussing, to talk about some interesting properties of each and
different approaches to their
interpretation (I have still to deal with local microgenises).

What both images seem to have in common is that an overall concept
covers
all the examples. One you see the overall concept, you
perception/interpretation of the constituents changes. And, if you are
working upward from the constituents, but still have not got "IT" the
little
its do not "add up."

So someone sees the two eyeball shaped almost green things as "two
green
dots." But after one takes
in the heart *near* the top, and then the two bells with what look like
ribbons, on may think (June=prominent
month for getting married, weddding bells...... and from there on,
there
are
functional relations among the parts and those functions have changed
in
some cases where the function is difficult to discern, like those
two partly green eye shaped things. Now they become "two peas i a pod"
and
you might notice that it is
kind of strange that they are only partly green.

I am pretty sure this is what Paula and David were writing about in a
more
consistent way.

One thing I am pretty certain of. Getting "it" requires voobrazhenie,
into-image-making, and the process of
voobrazhenie is path dependent.

What would LSV think?
mike
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*Andy Blunden*
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
Book: http://www.brill.nl/scss


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