[xmca] perception/conception etc

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Hi All-- I have changed the heading which has "chained" a good deal from the
topic
of the header.

I did not "see" the concepts in either image, Andy, until I went back to
them and somewhere
in both cases were conversations with my wife. Everyone is temporarily abled
and simultaneously disabled, all that changes in the mix.

Those interested in pursuing the line of inquiry opened by eric might enjoy
this early article by Ed Hutchins from his work in Trobriand a while back.

http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/fe79v1n2.PDF
mike

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 10:38 AM, <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org> wrote:

> Hi Michael:
>
> thanks for the example
>
> Laurie Anderson is an experimental performance artist that began with
> spoken word pieces performed to violin and electronic effects.  As she
> progressed in her artistic career she put recording "on hold" in order to
> take singing and voice lessons. Had her artistic conceptions outgrown her
> physical abilities?  I don't believe so because since that time she has
> recorded numerous albums with exceptional voice quality.   The formal
> training provided the "scientific concepts" that moved her beyond being a
> spoken word artist to an exceptional musician.  Scientific concepts do
> indeed appear to be born of formal academia.
>
> eric
>
>
>
> From:
> "Michael Glassman" <MGlassman@ehe.osu.edu>
> To:
> "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Date:
> 07/07/2010 12:01 PM
> Subject:
> RE: [xmca] comparing NewYorker images
> Sent by:
> xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>
>
>
> Hi Eric,
>
> Actually been thinking about this in another context.  Here is my view,
>
> A pipe blower teaches and apprentice to build a pipe, teaches him to build
> the pipe in a step by step method, the apprentice memorizes each step, and
> then recreates it in building his own pipe.  But that is all the
> apprentice can do, build that one single pipe following the exact same
> process.  I am thinking this would be at the level of a pseudo-concept.
>
> A pipe blower teachers an apprentice how to blow a pipe.  The pipe blower
> goes through the steps but explains the intricacies of what each step
> means and why it works towards the final product.  The apprentice is able
> to understand (appropriate?) each of these steps and use it to create a
> pipe, but also when the pipe blower wants to blow a different type of pipe
> does not have to go through the same step by step process but move quickly
> through the variations on the different steps.  The apprentice
> understanding the meaning of the steps in the process understands quickly
> and gets better and more efficient at making different types of pipes.  I
> am thinking this would be everyday concepts.
>
> A pipe blower is teaching an apprentice how to blow a pipe.  The pipe
> blower teaches the properties of how the material reacts to the flame, and
> what a material like glass can and cannot do at different temperatures.
> The pipe blower actually concentrates on the properties of materials more
> than making a pipe, believing the making of the pipe may take a much
> longer time, but the apprentice now has the freedom to experiment with not
> only glass, but materials and heat and can branch off to make things in
> different ways.  I am thinking this would be scientific concepts.
>
> The problem is, with the pipe blower take the time to engage in the third,
> even though in the long run it is better for the community.  Probably not,
> and may even think of it as being detrimetal.  That is why this type of
> education needs to occur in formal schooling.
>
> Of course once formally schooled the apprentice actually needs to go back
> and learn how to make an actualy pipe - actually go back to the concrete -
> and that is what allows him to go forward in the context of this new,
> abstract information.
>
> Michael
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
> Sent: Wed 7/7/2010 11:52 AM
> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] comparing NewYorker images
>
>
>
> perhaps this can be clarified perhaps not.
>
> When a tribal elder teaches an apprentice to build a blow pipe is that
> conveying scientific concepts or is it conveying everyday concepts?
>
> In other words do scientific concepts only happen in a formal academic
> setting?
>
> I can accept that everyday concepts grow out of perceptions rather than
> abstractions of thought.
>
> Perhaps that is my own muddled perception on things.  For if one views
> life as being perfect than one can live a perfect life.
>
> eric
>
>
>
> From:
> mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> To:
> ablunden@mira.net, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Date:
> 07/07/2010 09:22 AM
> Subject:
> Re: [xmca] comparing NewYorker images
> Sent by:
> xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>
>
>
> Yes indeed, beware empty abstractions, Andy!
> And rise to the concrete if we can.
> My major point in that note was that in moving between "levels" of
> abstraction contained with the image, our perception, how we
> "see" the constituents changes. Might this be akin to the dynamics between
> scientific and everyday concepts, and/or between differently configures
> systems of higher psychological functions?
> mike
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:26 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>
> > Well, we're all hanging out for the next issue of The New Yorker now! I
> > feel really "exposed" by this exercise. :) In both cases I failed to see
> the
> > cultural reference. I picked up the abstract-theoretical reference,
> indeed
> > I'd even already used No. 2 to illustrate "Gestalt", but still failed to
> see
> > the real-world, cultural meaning. :( Once an abstract-thinker, always an
> > abstract thinker, no matter how many books you read.
> >
> > Andy
> >
> >
> > White, Phillip wrote:
> >
> >> Well, certainly, Mike, I thing that knowing the song "Love and
> marriage,
> >> love and marriage, go together like a horse and carriage. Dad would say
> to
> >> Mother, "You can't have one without the other."
> >>
> >> So, yes, two peas in a pod, a pair of shoes, and a pair of eyes.
> >>
> >> Phillip
> >> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> >> Sender: "xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu" <xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 19:57:24 To: eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity<
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >> Reply-To: "lchcmike@gmail.com" <lchcmike@gmail.com>, "eXtended Mind,
> >> Culture,
> >>        Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >> Subject: [xmca] comparing NewYorker images
> >>
> >> I want to use the occasion of martin coming late to the second of two
> new
> >> yorker covers we have
> >> been disscussing, to talk about some interesting properties of each and
> >> different approaches to their
> >> interpretation (I have still to deal with local microgenises).
> >>
> >> What both images seem to have in common is that an overall concept
> covers
> >> all the examples. One you see the overall concept, you
> >> perception/interpretation of the constituents changes. And, if you are
> >> working upward from the constituents, but still have not got "IT" the
> >> little
> >> its do not "add up."
> >>
> >> So someone sees the two eyeball shaped almost green things as "two
> green
> >> dots." But after one takes
> >> in the heart *near* the top, and then the two bells with what look like
> >> ribbons, on may think (June=prominent
> >> month for getting married, weddding bells...... and from there on,
> there
> >> are
> >> functional relations among the parts and those functions have changed
> in
> >> some cases where the function is difficult to discern, like those
> >> two partly green eye shaped things. Now they become "two peas i a pod"
> and
> >> you might notice that it is
> >> kind of strange that they are only partly green.
> >>
> >> I am pretty sure this is what Paula and David were writing about in a
> more
> >> consistent way.
> >>
> >> One thing I am pretty certain of. Getting "it" requires voobrazhenie,
> >> into-image-making, and the process of
> >> voobrazhenie is path dependent.
> >>
> >> What would LSV think?
> >> mike
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
> > --
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *Andy Blunden*
> > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> <
> http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/ <
> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>> >
> > Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
> > Book: http://www.brill.nl/scss
> >
> >
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