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[xmca] Re: Understanding of Symbolic Play as a hermeneutic activity of PROJECTION
Hi Anton Goncu (and Suzanne Gaskins) and also Martin, Andy, and all the others engaging in symbolic play/projection.
Awhile ago Anton posted a response on our discussion of the playworld and mentioned he and Suzanne had a chapter in the book "Oxford Handbook of the Development of Play" (in press) that could help as a leading source of furthering our discussion. He asked for requests from people who wanted a copy. I asked for a copy and I think this article should be read by everyone who is interested in Piaget, Vygotsky, playworlds, and intersubjectivity.
Martin, my posting Ingrid Josephs work on the as-is/as-if antinomy and your response that this way of framing the discourse can be viewed through a hermeneutic lens and in particular the notion of "projection" left me with a promise to myself to read more on this particular notion of hermeneutic projection.
Now, I want to suggest that Ingrid Joseph's notion of as-is/as-if antinomy, and hermeneutic projection, can also be engaged with Anton's and Suzanne's chapter "Comparing and extending Piaget's and Vygotsky's Understanding of Play: Symbolic play as Individual, Sociocultural and Educational Interpretation. (I also see Mead's theory as interpreted by Gillespie as sharing similar notions and is sociocultural not simply interactional.)
All the people mentioned above and all the various theories see play/experience in social acts as an activity of INTERPRETATION. Anton & Suzanne suggest Piaget was more focused on the as-was developmental origins of play, whereas Vygotsky's focus was more on play's being a LEADING as-if activity. Piaget's notion emphasized that symbolic play empowers children by enabling them to CONSOLIDATE PAST EXPERIENCE (as-was) whereas Vygotsky focuses on play as creating a ZPD where the child ANTICIPATES functioning BEYOND her actual development (as-IF)
Vygotsky also pointed out that play allows children to SEPARATE MEANING from objects and actions. (for example mounting a stick and acting AS-IF riding a horse. This is the activity which leads to the development of word meaning as children use one object to represent the meaning of another object and use symbols like words to represent the meaning. (Mead's significant intersubjective meaning) It is this process of INTERPRETING in symbolic play that enables the development of consciousness/reflection. (Hermeneutics & Ingrid's describing activity at the grave of a deceased point out that play is only one particular example of a process that is being enacted and engaged throughout the life span. Looking at this process in child development allows a window into this hermeneutic process of projection.
Anton and Suzanne point out both Piaget and Vygotsky had a BLIND SPOT that they didn't recognize that symbolic play is INTERSUBJECTIVE. (As an aside Mead's theory was explicitly intersubjective as is Ingrid Joseph's theory and hermeneutics. As Anton & Suzanne write, "Largely because of this omission (blind spot) by Piaget and Vygotsky, there is a prevailing tendency among play researchers to conceptualize symbolic play as primarily an intrinsically motivated activity even when it is experienced as a socially shared activity.....The attribution of responsibility of engagement to individuals, as supposedly autonomous players, has led not only to misconcepties in children's playons of Western children's play, but also by extension, has precluded the accurate understanding of cultural differenc (p.11)
In summary
I believe these various discourses mentioned above, from alternative frameworks, are converging on a shared INTERSUBJECTIVE notion of symbolic play that is sociocultural (and I think hermeneutic from my reading of Martin's post) and that this symbolic play is actually a much larger phenomena of aan as-is/as-if antinomy.
Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Purss <lpurss@shaw.ca>
Date: Sunday, March 21, 2010 8:19 pm
Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: Play and the Owl of Minerva
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Martin
> Thanks for helping locate these themes on the centrality
> of time as part of the hermeneutic discourse.
> "Projection" in all 3 phases is definitely a theme which offers
> significant insights when authors such as Ingrid Josephs
> use it as a unit of analysis.
> I don't think these insights have stopped the puzzlement, but it
> does help as a signpost to guide the journey to ...?
>
> Larry
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu>
> Date: Sunday, March 21, 2010 3:41 pm
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: Play and the Owl of Minerva
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>
> > Larry,
> >
> > This is what is called, in hermeneutic theory, the
> > characteristic of "projection." All understanding of an
> object,
> > event, or situation, and hence all interpretation (which is
> the
> > articulation of understanding) is its projection, in three
> > senses. First, in terms of a practical project. Second, as a
> > projectile has been thrown forward from the past into the
> > future. Third, it is projected onto a background (rather as a
> > film is 'projected' in a screen), so that what shows itself is
> > always in the terms (loosely speaking) that this background
> > makes possible.
> >
> > I don't know whether this will rid you of puzzlement! But yes
> > it's better than crosswords.
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > On Mar 21, 2010, at 5:11 PM, Larry Purss wrote:
> >
> > > Martin, Andy, Luiz
> > > Thank you for your reflections on tnis topic which I have to
> > admit leaves me more puzzled than ever (but it is more
> > interesting than doing crossword puzzles.
> > > I wanted to add a few more thoughts from Ingrid Joseph's
> > notions on this topic and the dimension of TIME in self-development.
> > > She points out that polyvalent symbolic networks are dynamic
> > and FUTURE oriented as social PERSPECTIVES and TIME are
> > dynamically interwoven.
> > > The PRESENT as-IS functions as an intersection BETWEEN as-
> WAS
> > and future as-if-could-be states. STABILITY of meaning is
> > provided by the fact that that the past is projected into the
> > future, whereas CHANGE results from the TRANSFORMATION of the
> > past by the future as-if-could-be. Ingrid states, "possible
> > futures are nourished by the past, but at the same time the
> past
> > is changed by the ANTICIPATED future" (Crites 1986 as
> > quoted by Ingrid, 1998 p. 192) Through this DOUBLE
> > MOVEMENT in the present AS-IS, the present moves towards its
> > immediate future, and becomes a NEW PRESENT. and the process
> > begins again.
> > >
> > > If the role of either past (as-was) or future (as-if-could
> be)
> > becomes DOMINANT in a one sided manner, sel-development
> becomes
> > blocked and movement becomes stuck (emotions also become stuck)
> > > Food for continuing thought
> > >
> > > Larry
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----,
> > > From: Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu>
> > > Date: Sunday, March 21, 2010 11:51 am
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: Play and the Owl of Minerva
> > > To: ablunden@mira.net, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> > <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> > >> Big topic, Andy, and I can't afford to get distracted from
> > >> trying to figure out LSV on concepts! But it has to be said
> > that
> > >> science is hermeneutic too. There is not a single science
> > that
> > >> is not concerned with understanding traces, signs, indices,
> > even
> > >> symbols. That's to say, science is all about "taking
> > something
> > >> *as* something" (as Heidegger put it) and so "saying
> > something
> > >> of something," (as Aristotle had it, in his On Interpretation).
> > >>
> > >> Martin
> > >>
> > >> On Mar 20, 2010, at 9:11 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> A while ago I was obliged to deal with the work of Roy
> > >> Bhaskar. What Bhaskar does is insist on the ontology of
> > natural
> > >> science in every aspect of life, including for example,
> > literary
> > >> criticism and cultural anthropology. The editor makes a
> nice
> > >> point with an anecdote: he is at a seminar on J-P Sartre. A
> > >> student in the audience calls out "Do you really think that
> > >> someone called J-P Sartre existed?" Obivously an
> > inappropriate
> > >> application of relativism, which then opens the way for his
> > own
> > >> dogmatism.>
> > >>> I was drawn to the conclusion that it is dogmatism to
> insist
> > >> on one true ontology (here I mean ontology the general,
> > >> classical, not the Sartrean sense) for all activities at
> all
> > >> times. Natural science is an activity which by its very
> > nature
> > >> must assume that there is a natural world out there whose
> > >> properties and forms can be known. This is not true of any
> > >> activity where reality is in a significant degree formed by
> > and
> > >> interconnected with, human activity and in the case of the
> > >> natural sciences breaks down in certain circumstances at
> > certain
> > >> times.>
> > >>> So I don't accept that naturalistic ontology is a *myth*
> of
> > >> the natural sciences. It is an essential part of natural
> > >> science. But it is not universal. It is just as dogmatic to
> > >> insist on hermeneutic relativism in natural science as it
> is
> > to
> > >> insist on naturalistic realism in hermeneutics, etc.
> > >>>
> > >>> Andy
> > >>>
> > >>> Martin Packer wrote:
> > >>>> Larry,
> > >>>> Yes, it has for a long time been part of the myth of
> modern
> > >> science that it discloses things as they 'really are,' not
> as
> > >> they 'appear' to be. LSV falls into this way of speaking
> (or
> > at
> > >> least his translators do). The most powerful analyses of
> > >> science, philosophical, historical and sociological, in my
> > >> opinion, show that it is thoroughly enchanted. Science
> > involves
> > >> seeing (and thinking of) things 'as if.' So Kuhn explained
> > >> paradigms in terms of 'seeing as' - a duck or a rabbit. So
> > every
> > >> introduction I have seen of gravity in relativity theory
> uses
> > >> the image of space sagging like a rubber sheet around
> masses,
> > >> even though this image is inadequate once one gets deeper
> > into
> > >> the math. Seeing space 'as if' it were rubber is a
> necessary
> > >> step into this branch of science. Each science has/is its
> own
> > >> imaginary.>> Martin
> > >>>> On Mar 20, 2010, at 10:20 AM, Larry Purss wrote:
> > >>>>> Luiz
> > >>>>> That was an interesting thread you sent on play and
> games
> > >> and the tension between the concepts.
> > >>>>> It is a fascinating topic.
> > >>>>> I want to bring into the conversation a fascinating
> > >> perspective on the place of the fictional and imaginary in
> > play
> > >> (and other activity).
> > >>>>> First for some context.
> > >>>>> I've always been curious about the antinomy often
> > reflected
> > >> in the tension between imagination/reality and the
> literature
> > on
> > >> modernity as the disenchantment of the world and the
> reaction
> > to
> > >> this privleging the as-IS reality over the as-IF
> > reality.
> > >> There is a counter literature on finding ways to re-enchant
> > the world.
> > >>>>> Often science is seen as the villan who is responsible
> for
> > >> the loss of the as-IF reality, as children move beyond
> > playful
> > >> imagination into the real world.
> > >>>>> Piaget's notions of animism as indicating immature thinking.
> > >>>>> INGRID E. JOSEPHS takes a radically different
> perspective
> > on
> > >> the tension between the imaginary as-IF constructions and
> the
> > >> figure-ground type relation to as-IS reality.
> > >>>>> She wrote an article in HUMAN DEVELOPMENT 1198, Volume
> 41,
> > >> pages 180-195 which explains very clearly this
> > alternative
> > >> interpretation of the as-IS and as-IF dialectic and how it
> > >> infuses meaning with e-motion and explains the process of
> > >> Vygotsky's internalization and Mead's I-ME dialectic.
> > >>>>> Following is a quick summary of Ingrid's perspective on
> > the
> > >> imaginary in our devlopment.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Symbol formation implies a TRANSCENDENCE of the here-and-
> > now
> > >> as-IS world by construction of the imaginary as-IF world.
> > >> Ingrid's standpoint is an extension of Hans Vaihinger's
> [1911-
> > >> 1986] "philosophy of the "AS-IF" as his notion of
> > FICTIONALISM
> > >> as an independent version of PRAGMATISM. (as an aside
> Alfred
> > >> Adler said this book transformed his life).
> > >>>>> Vaihinger believed as-If thinking was foundational for
> > >> scientific reasoning.
> > >>>>> Ingrid makes a further distinction between static
> > >> nondevelopmental and dynamic/developmental accounts of as-
> > >> IF. "BEING as-if" is static, whereas "BEING-AS-IF-
> COULD-
> > >> BE" is dynamic. She points out this is similar to
> > Bretherton's
> > >> distinction of AS-IF and WHAT-IF. In dynamic notions, the
> as-
> > IF
> > >> is a step in the process of forward oriented preadaptation
> to
> > >> the next MOMENTARY context. Development is based on as-IF
> > types
> > >> of apperception as each person participates in their own
> > >> development. Rather than being MORE adaptive or BETTER
> > Ingrid's
> > >> position is that developmental transformations cannot be
> > >> prejudged before the act. Whether it is better or worse is
> an
> > >> evaluative question.
> > >>>>> In summary imagination always begins in the known world
> of
> > >> present and past and then one's horizon of understanding is
> > >> stretched into the realm of the as-IF.. Ingrid points out
> > this
> > >> notion of as-IF is close to Cole's [1992, 1995] notions of
> > >> personal duration. Ingrid states, "In imagination, not only
> > do
> > >> present, past, and future become MUTUALLY RELATED (and
> > >> constructed), but both the person and world are
> transformed." p.184
> > >>>>> Now to the more specific topic of SYMBOLIC PLAY that is
> > >> being explored on this thread. Piaget understood play as
> pure
> > >> assimilation that is necessary until developmentally the
> > child
> > >> can transcend this immature level of reality and with
> > >> development SUBORDINATE the as-IF reality by the rational
> > >> logical, and DECENTERED modes of entering reality.
> The
> > as-
> > >> If is not ascribed any PRODUCTIVE future oriented function
> in
> > >> development. In contrast the position Ingrid (and Cole,
> > >> Vygotsky, Mead,) are elaborating is that the AS-IF-COULD-BE
> > >> operates throughout the lifespan.
> > >>>>> [Note] I'm emailing this section because my software
> > >> sometimes crashes
> > >>>>> Larry
> > >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>>>> From: Wagner Luiz Schmit <mcfion@gmail.com>
> > >>>>> Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010 8:11 pm
> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: Play and the Owl of Minerva
> > >>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> >>>>>
> > >>>>>> I even didn't had time to read all e-mails (lots and
> lots
> > >> of work to
> > >>>>>> do), but games and development is exactly what i want
> to
> > >> study in my
> > >>>>>> doctorship.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Do you heard about narratology David? this was used to
> > >> study and analisegames for a while, and them other thing
> > called
> > >> ludology emerged...
> > >>>>>> Take a look at this article:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> LUDOLOGY MEETS NARRATOLOGY:
> > >>>>>> Similitude and differences between (video)games and
> narrative.> >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> http://www.ludology.org/articles/ludology.htm
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> this is my two cents contribution to the discussion...
> > and
> > >> i'm very very
> > >>>>>> interested too in this rational/irrational discussion
> > >> too... but i don't
> > >>>>>> have much to contribute now... Only that William James
> > >> already was
> > >>>>>> debating this =P (being a teacher of history of
> > Psychology
> > >> is very
> > >>>>>> usefull)
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Wagner Luiz Schmit
> > >>>>>> INESUL - Brazil
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Em Ter, 2010-03-16 às 18:13 -0700, David Kellogg escreveu:
> > >>>>>>> Sorry, everybody!
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> One of my grads tried to find the point at which a
> > >>>>>> story definitively passes over into a game, and I said
> it
> > >> was a little like trying to find the point where talk
> > >> definitively passes over into talk. It is there, but we
> > always
> > >> find texts in talk, and talk in texts, no matter which side
> > of
> > >> the divide we may find ourselves on.
> > >>>>>>> I meant to write "it's a little like trying to find
> the
> > >> point
> > >>>>>> where talk passes over into TEXT". Halliday remarks
> > >> somewhere that scientific linguistics didn't really start
> > until
> > >> the invention of the tape recorder.
> > >>>>>>> I was always puzzled by that remark until I realized
> > that
> > >>>>>> until the invention of the tape recorder, TEXT was
> > >> synonymous with writing and TALK was synonymous with
> speech,
> > and
> > >> only people like Bakhtin and Vygotsky knew that there was a
> > much
> > >> deeper, underlying difference having to do with pastness
> and
> > >> presentness, finalizeability and unfinalizedness.
> > >>>>>>> (When we look at Piaget's work on conservation it is
> > quite
> > >> a
> > >>>>>> while before we realize how dependent on VISUALS it is.
> > For
> > >> the child, sound is not conserved at all, and of course
> > neither
> > >> is time. It is only with the discovery of language that the
> > >> child can imagine the conservation of sound at all.)
> > >>>>>>> I think that the distinction between text and
> discourse
> > is
> > >>>>>> really the fast moving line between stories and games
> > that
> > >> we want: the story is past and the game is present, the
> story
> > is
> > >> finalizedness and the game is unfinalized and inherently
> > >> unpredictable. So the story is a text, and the game is an
> > >> ongoing discourse.
> > >>>>>>> I think, Andy, that in a game the problem is not
> autnomy
> > >> per
> > >>>>>> se. It's autonomy for a purpose, and purposes are
> almost
> > by
> > >> definition not only beyond the self but even beyond the
> > present
> > >> moment (and this is why Mike is so right to point out that
> > EVERY
> > >> act of culture or even private imagination has an implicit
> > >> notion of "the good life" in it).
> > >>>>>>> Similarly, I don't think Vygotsky ever prizes volition
> > for
> > >> its
> > >>>>>> own sake; it's always the freedom to produce and to
> > create
> > >> and to imagine "the good life" and to master the irrational
> > >> forces which deprive life of that meaning, including those
> > found
> > >> within the self. It is in that sense that, yes, life is a
> > game:
> > >> it is meaningful through and through and to the very end.
> > Not, I
> > >> think, what the existentialists had in mind!
> > >>>>>>> David Kellogg
> > >>>>>>> Seoul National University of Education
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Wittgenstein claimed that there is no overt over-
> arching
> > >>>>>> and external trait between games (e.g. a common
> > functional
> > >> "motive" or a "goal"). When we read Vygotsky's play
> lectures,
> > we
> > >> find TWO common points: viz. gratuitous difficulty and
> guile-
> > >>>>>> less deceit, the abstract rule and the imaginary situation.
> > >>>>>>>> But one is always hidden when the other is abroad.
> > >>>>>> After all, Wittgenstein's argument was only that there
> is
> > >> no CLEARLY VISIBLE over-arching trait. And Vygotsky's reply
> > is
> > >> that if the essence of things were visible on the surface,
> as
> > >> overt motive, or aim, or goal, why then no scientific
> > >> explanation would ever be required for anything. His
> > explanation
> > >> of play is not an empiricist-functionalist but a
> historical,
> > >> genetically, deterministic one, and the owl of Minerva
> flies
> > >> only at nightfall.
> > >>>>>>>> David Kellogg
> > >>>>>>>> Seoul National University of Education
> > >>>>>>>> --- On *Mon, 3/15/10, Andy Blunden
> > >> /<ablunden@mira.net>/*
> > >>>>>> wrote:> >
> > >>>>>>>> From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Dialects of
> > >>>>>> Development- Sameroff
> > >>>>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture,
> > >>>>>> Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >>>>>>>> Date: Monday, March 15, 2010, 5:33 PM
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Way out of my depth in discussing
> > >>>>>> play, but here is my take
> > >>>>>>>> on "what is the motivation for play?"
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I don't think we can or want to
> > >>>>>> ascribe a motivation for
> > >>>>>>>> participating in play *in general*.
> > >>>>>> I.e., the question of
> > >>>>>>>> "why does a child play?" cannot
> > >>>>>> sensibly be answered by the
> > >>>>>>>> child. But this still leaves the
> > >>>>>> question of the motivation
> > >>>>>>>> for any particular play activity:
> > >>>>>> what is it that is
> > >>>>>>>> motivating a child when they play?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> It seems to me that every action a
> > >>>>>> child takes can be
> > >>>>>>>> explicable in terms of its being
> > >>>>>> part of a project, and the
> > >>>>>>>> "Why are you doing that?" question
> > >>>>>> gets the same kind of
> > >>>>>>>> answer as it would for an adult at work.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> A different kind of explanation is
> > >>>>>> required for why a child
> > >>>>>>>> is drawn to participate in what is
> > >>>>>> after all an "imaginary"
> > >>>>>>>> project, then gun does not fire
> > >>>>>> bullets, the money is not
> > >>>>>>>> coin of the realm, etc. I think in
> > >>>>>> answering the question at
> > >>>>>>>> that level we look at problems the
> > >>>>>> child faces in being
> > >>>>>>>> exlcuded from the real world and
> > >>>>>> their attempts to overcome
> > >>>>>>>> that. I don't know. But from the
> > >>>>>> beginning a child it trying
> > >>>>>>>> to extricate themselves from the
> > >>>>>> trap of childishness.
> > >>>>>>>> Andy
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> mike cole wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> Your helixes/helices seemed
> > >>>>>> appropriate to the discussion, Martin.
> > >>>>>>>>> XXX-history is cultural-
> > >>>>>> historical genesis. And, as Steve suggested,
> > >>>>>>>>> the twisted rope of many
> > >>>>>> strands may be at the end of the rainbow of
> > >>>>>>>>> promises.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> I have been pondering David
> > >>>>>> Ke's question about the
> > >>>>>>>>> object/objective/motivation
> > >>>>>> for play. It came together in my
> > >>>>>>>> thinking with
> > >>>>>>>>> Yrjo's metaphor of being
> > >>>>>> always "just over the horizon" and its dual
> > >>>>>>>>> material and ideal nature,
> > >>>>>> most recently mentioned by
> > >>>>>>>> Wolf-Michael. Might it
> > >>>>>>>>> be the dream of being
> > >>>>>> coordinated with a world entirely
> > >>>>>>>> consistent with
> > >>>>>>>>> one's own dreams? A world,
> > >>>>>> extending, as Leslie White put it,
> > >>>>>>>> that extends
> > >>>>>>>>> from infinity to infinity,
> > >>>>>> in both directions?
> > >>>>>>>>> probably not, just wondering.
> > >>>>>>>>> mike
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:55
> > >>>>>> PM, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu
> > >>>>>>
> > >>
> >
> <http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=packer@duq.edu>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>> Larry,
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> I didn't mean to detract
> > >>>>>> from the discussion with my playful
> > >>>>>>>> helices. I
> > >>>>>>>>>> haven't found time yet to
> > >>>>>> read Sameroff's article, so I don't
> > >>>>>>>> know if he is
> > >>>>>>>>>> proposing that there is an
> > >>>>>> antimony between nature and nurture
> > >>>>>>>> in human
> > >>>>>>>>>> development, or in our
> > >>>>>> *conceptions* of development. I took Mike
> > >>>>>>>> to be
> > >>>>>>>>>> suggesting, in his recent
> > >>>>>> message, that when we pay attention to
> > >>>>>>>> culture we
> > >>>>>>>>>> can transcend that
> > >>>>>> antimony, since culture is a 'second nature' that
> > >>>>>>>>>> provides nurture, and since
> > >>>>>> culture is the medium in which human
> > >>>>>>>> brains and
> > >>>>>>>>>> bodies grow, and since all
> > >>>>>> nurture offered to the growing child
> > >>>>>>>> is mediated
> > >>>>>>>>>> by culture, and since
> > >>>>>> culture has been transforming human nature
> > >>>>>>>> throughout
> > >>>>>>>>>> anthropogenesis through its
> > >>>>>> selective evolutionary pressures.
> > >>>>>>>>>> Eric, yes, I should have
> > >>>>>> added phylogenesis, not just biological
> > >>>>>>>> evolution.
> > >>>>>>>>>> What then is the "XX-
> > >>>>>> genesis" term for history?
> > >>>>>>>>>> Martin
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> On Mar 14, 2010, at 9:55
> > >>>>>> PM, Larry Purss wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> It seems the double or
> > >>>>>> triple helix is a significant way of
> > >>>>>>>> trying to
> > >>>>>>>>>> configure dynamic
> > >>>>>> processes. However, what the particular
> > >>>>>>>> specific double
> > >>>>>>>>>> helix referred to in the
> > >>>>>> article is pointing to is a very
> > >>>>>>>> specific tension
> > >>>>>>>>>> BETWEEN two specific
> > >>>>>> constructs "Nature" and "nurture". The
> > >>>>>>>> current debates
> > >>>>>>>>>> raging about neuroscience
> > >>>>>> on the one side and the tension with
> > >>>>>>>> relational
> > >>>>>>>>>> notions of development on
> > >>>>>> the other hand (ie the
> > >>>>>>>>>> self-other-
> > >>>>>> object/representation triangle) suggest a dialectical
> > >>>>>>>> tension
> > >>>>>>>>>> which the article says may
> > >>>>>> be INHERENT to development. To me
> > >>>>>>>> this is asking
> > >>>>>>>>>> a question about how the
> > >>>>>> mind constructs significant social
> > >>>>>>>> representations.
> > >>>>>>>>>> What is specific
> > >>>>>> about this particular double helix is the
> > >>>>>>>> HISTORICAL
> > >>>>>>>>>> salience of this SPECIFIC
> > >>>>>> ANTIMONY through centuries of dialogue
> > >>>>>>>> and theory.
> > >>>>>>>>>> My question is "Is there
> > >>>>>> significance to the extended duration
> > >>>>>>>> of this
> > >>>>>>>>>> specific antimony through
> > >>>>>> centuries. Does this historical
> > >>>>>>>> engagement with
> > >>>>>>>>>> the specific notions of
> > >>>>>> nature and nurture have relevance for CHAT
> > >>>>>>>>>> discussions. This is
> > >>>>>> not to say other double or triple helix
> > >>>>>>>> models may not
> > >>>>>>>>>> have more explanatory power
> > >>>>>> but that is not the specific
> > >>>>>>>> question asked in
> > >>>>>>>>>> the article. The question
> > >>>>>> being asked specifically is if this
> > >>>>>>>> specific
> > >>>>>>>>>> nature/nurture antinomy is
> > >>>>>> inherent to the notion of
> > >>>>>>>> development? Other
> > >>>>>>>>>> double or triple helix's
> > >>>>>> could be conceptualized within the
> > >>>>>>>> nature/nurture
> > >>>>>>>>>> antinomy but the question I
> > >>>>>> believe is being asked is how relevant a
> > >>>>>>>>>> dialectical (or
> > >>>>>> alternatively dialogically) nature/nurture
> > >>>>>>>> antinomy is to
> > >>>>>>>>>> our primary (ontological??)
> > >>>>>> notions of Development as a social
> > >>>>>>>>>> representation.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> When I read the article,
> > >>>>>> it seemed to capture the tension we are
> > >>>>>>>>>> exploring about the place
> > >>>>>> of neuroscience in our theories of
> > >>>>>>>> development.
> > >>>>>>>>>> For some scholars one side
> > >>>>>> or the other side is in ascendence and
> > >>>>>>>>>> historically one side or
> > >>>>>> the other is in ascendence. What the
> > >>>>>>>> article is
> > >>>>>>>>>> asking is if we must
> > >>>>>> "INTEGRATE" what is often seen as in
> > >>>>>>>> opposition and
> > >>>>>>>>>> realize nature/nurture is
> > >>>>>> in a figure/ground type of relational
> > >>>>>>>> pattern
> > >>>>>>>>>> (like the ying/yang visual
> > >>>>>> representation) and the movement
> > >>>>>>>> BETWEEN the two
> > >>>>>>>>>> positions is basic to
> > >>>>>> development.> > >>> Do
> > others
> > >> have thoughts on the specific question Arnie has
> > >>>>>>>> asked in his
> > >>>>>>>>>> article about the
> > >>>>>> historical dynamic of the nature/nurture
> > >>>>>>>> antinomy in
> > >>>>>>>>>> developmental theories as
> > >>>>>> well as in ontological and cultural
> > >>>>>>>> historical
> > >>>>>>>>>> development. This question
> > >>>>>> speaks to me about the possible
> > >>>>>>>> relevance of
> > >>>>>>>>>> Moscovici's theory of
> > >>>>>> social representations.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> One alternative answer is
> > >>>>>> to generate other double or triple
> > >>>>>>>> helix models
> > >>>>>>>>>> which may become social
> > >>>>>> representations over time as they are
> > >>>>>>>> debated in a
> > >>>>>>>>>> community of inquiry but
> > >>>>>> the article as written is pointing to a
> > >>>>>>>> very
> > >>>>>>>>>> salient social
> > >>>>>> representation within our Western tradition. Does
> > >>>>>>>> that
> > >>>>>>>>>> recognition of its
> > >>>>>> historical roots change how we view this
> > >>>>>>>> particular
> > >>>>>>>>>> antinomy?
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Larry
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----
> > >>>>>> -
> > >>>>>>>>>>> From: Martin Packer
> > >>>>>> <packer@duq.edu> >
> > >>
> >
> <http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=packer@duq.edu>>> > >>> Date: Sunday, March 14, 2010 4:59 pm
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca]
> > >>>>>> Dialects of Development- Sameroff
> > >>>>>>>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind,
> > >>>>>> Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>>>
> > >>
> >
> <http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> That's right, Steve,
> > >>>>>> though I'm pretty sure I didn't see this
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> title until after I made
> > >>>>>> the diagram. And of course Lewontin is
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> referring to different
> > >>>>>> factors. And, also, of course, collagen
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> actually does have a
> > >>>>>> triple-helix structure, which Francis Crick
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> thought was more
> > >>>>>> interesting than the double helix of DNA, but
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> which got very little
> > >>>>>> attention.> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Martin
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 14, 2010, at 7:53
> > >>>>>> PM, Steve Gabosch wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On the triple helix
> > >>>>>> metaphor: Richard Lewontin used it
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> in the title of his
> > >>>>>> 1998/2000 collection of essays _The Triple
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Helix: Gene, Organism and
> > >>>>>> Environment_. His core theme
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> regarding biological
> > >>>>>> development is that solely considering the
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> interaction between gene
> > >>>>>> and organism makes for bad
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> biology. The
> > >>>>>> environment has decisive influence as well.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Steve
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 14, 2010, at
> > >>>>>> 10:20 AM, Martin Packer wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 14, 2010, at
> > >>>>>> 1:04 PM, Larry Purss wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do others think
> > >>>>>> of the double helix (and/or the other
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> visual images in the
> > >>>>>> article). How central is the double helix
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> (either as an "is Like"
> > >>>>>> or "IS" objectification) to your notions
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> of the human sciences?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Larry
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...and I am pretty sure
> > >>>>>> I stole, I mean appropriated, this
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> from someone; I've
> > >>>>>> forgotten who...
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <PastedGraphic-2.pdf>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>>>
> > >>
> >
> <http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> > >>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>>>
> > >>
> >
> <http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> > >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>>>
> > >>
> >
> <http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> > >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________>
> > >>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>>>
> > >>
> >
> <http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> > >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________>
> > >>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>>>
> > >>
> >
> <http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________>
> > >>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>>>
> > >>
> >
> <http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>>>>>> -- ----------
> > >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > --
> > >> --
> > >>>>>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> > >>>>>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel,
> > >>>>>> Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
> > >>>>>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________>
> > >>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>
> >
> <http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> -- ----------------------------------------------------
> --
> > --
> > >> ----
> > >>>>>> ------------
> > >>>>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> > >>>>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev,
> > >> Meshcheryakov,
> > >>>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> any
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> -----------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > --
> > >> ---------
> > >>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> > >>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev,
> Meshcheryakov,
> > >> Ilyenkov $20 ea
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> xmca mailing list
> > >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> xmca mailing list
> > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> _______________________________________________
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