Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

I think Sasha's idea is perfectly plausible.
So who out there can run the experiment??
"-)
mike

On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com> wrote:

> Alexander Surmava (Sasha) sent me some keen observations on the plastic box
> experiment and predicts that if a child was left alone with the clear
> plastic box and their candy prizes long without adult observation, the child
> would go the road of the chimps and discard the unnecessary moves.  This
> suggests an interesting extension of this experiment which could offer
> additional insight into the social nature of over-imitation that Rod and
> Mike are discussing.
>
> - Steve
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2010, at 7:23 AM, mike cole wrote:
>
>  I agree with your analysis, Rod. The application of "over" to this form of
>> imitation obscures the sources of reward for the children in imitating
>> adults. I was trying to indicate that this phenomenon fits well the idea
>> of
>> the special role of social others in earliest infancy evidenced as part of
>> mutual imitation.
>>
>> I know what you mean about the problems of working time and a half while
>> engaging in these discussions. No one can read and respond to everything--
>> almost certainly no one wants to! But the presence of a diverse and
>> changing
>> group of "chatters," while frustrating at times, is also a source of
>> dependably helpful, if often unexpected, insight and enrichment of what do
>> in our "paid for" lives.
>>
>> Our in again out again discussion of the special qualities of human
>> sociality and its development being a case in point.
>>
>> mike
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 4:19 AM, Rod Parker-Rees <
>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>>  Mike,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What I meant was that these studies appear to be based on the premise
>>> that
>>> the ‘rational’ thing to do (in order to obtain the reward - sweet or
>>> sticker
>>> - efficiently) is X so if the child does X+, the + is surplus or
>>> redundant
>>> (overimitation has different connotations from, for example,
>>> ‘superimitation’). Part of the problem with this, I think, is that it
>>> doesn’t sufficiently acknowledge the fact that, for children, the
>>> ‘reward’
>>> may be as much, or more, to do with the social interaction as the simple
>>> getting of stuff.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And this reminds me of a delightful piece of research which showed that
>>> doctors were more likely to diagnose an unusual combination of symptoms
>>> if
>>> the patient presented them with a small bag of sweets as they entered the
>>> consulting room – gift giving has powerful social implications!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519661.200-a-spoonful-of-sugar-helps-the-doctor-feel-good.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I need to work out a way of keeping up with all the good stuff here while
>>> also managing a more than full time job – at the moment I am still
>>> working
>>> with habits developed elsewhere (e.g. it is rude not to answer a long and
>>> detailed reply to a posting, it is rude to hog the converstion etc.) and
>>> my
>>> dugout sometimes feels more like a worryingly unstable log!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>>
>>> Rod
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* mike cole [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com]
>>> *Sent:* 06 February 2010 21:11
>>> *To:* Rod Parker-Rees
>>> *Cc:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Rod-- you write: children do what adults do before they know WHY adults
>>> do
>>> it.
>>>
>>> Precisely. I did not take the "over" part of overimitation to imply that
>>> the kids were doing it just "for the reward." I think it possible to
>>> interpret it, rather, as derivative of the kinds of mutual imitation seen
>>> in
>>> earliest infancy.
>>>
>>> Deb Downing found the Premack and Premack chapter, clever lady, by
>>> seeking it as follows:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://books.google.com/books?id=g_hMIz7LN18C&pg=PA302&lpg=PA302&dq=Why+animals+lack+pedagogy+and+some+cultures+have+more+of+it+than+others+/+David+Premack,+Ann+James+Premack&source=bl&ots=HvZEFPfY33&sig=c7kCqQqX_mNOzEWvWyhBWxyynYw&hl=en&ei=RcdtS8bKJI7UsgPboemxDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAQ#v
>>> =onepage&q=Why%20animals%20lack%20pedagogy%20and%20some%20cultures%20have%20more%20of%20it%20than%20others%20%2F%20David%20Premack%2C%20Ann%20James%20Premack&f=false
>>>
>>> This chapter has a pretty detailed discussion of the uniqueness of
>>> deliberate instruction (pedagogy) to humans. I was after this chapter
>>> particularly because of a related claim the Premacks make: that aesthetic
>>> sensibility is unique to humans. Another, related, topic for another
>>> message.
>>>
>>> mike
>>>
>>> On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Rod Parker-Rees <
>>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> Interesting that we describe what children do with these trick boxes as
>>> 'overimitation' as if the sole purpose of imitation were just to get a
>>> reward. As the first of the youtube videos points out, children, unlike
>>> other apes, have learned to expect adults to adjust what they do to fit
>>> the
>>> child's interests (this pedagogical orientation seems to be uniquely
>>> human,
>>> though I remember seeing a film of meerkats apparently 'scaffolding'
>>> digging
>>> out food, setting up young to finish off the job). Given this
>>> expectation,
>>> and in the social context of interaction with an unfamiliar adult, it is
>>> not
>>> surprising that children should 'be on their best behaviour' or
>>> 'hypervigilant' in their efforts to go along with a stranger's funny
>>> ways.
>>> It would be interesting to see if similar results would be obtained if
>>> the
>>> set up was conducted by a familiar adult in familiar surroundings (and
>>> with
>>> familiar gear).
>>>
>>> It seems to me that overimitation would be a necessary feature of
>>> Vygotsky's model of internalisation of social activity - children do what
>>> adults do before they know WHY adults do it (and indeed we all do many
>>> things without necessarily being absolutely clear about why we do them,
>>> other than that people might be offended if we didn't). In many cases
>>> adults
>>> will insist on overimitation - say 'please', say grace before a meal,
>>> brush
>>> your teeth before you go to bed etc. etc.. One of my personal horrors is
>>> 'communication training' for children with learning difficulties -
>>> involving
>>> insistence that the child presents a token before a reward is handed
>>> over,
>>> even though child and adult both know that the adult already knows
>>> exactly
>>> what the child wants).
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Rod
>>>
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: 06 February 2010 18:47
>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref
>>>
>>>
>>> Good addition to the paper. Probably same experimenters.
>>> mike
>>>
>>> On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Two more videos on overimitation, a black box/clear box experiment that
>>>> shows children are more likely to overimitate than chimps.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIAoJsS9Ix8
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHuagL7x5Wc&feature=related
>>>>
>>>> - Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 6, 2010, at 7:46 AM, mike cole wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Found it:  http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2007/11/27/0704452104.DC1
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> mike
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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