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Re: [xmca] Human spark TV show: when did the sparks begin?



Very well said, Deb!  Thank you.

And one could add more questions to this pile: what kind of human social organization does it take to not only to create the ability to create the tools and plan the hunting (and gathering, and preparations of many kinds of food, keep the fires, create the clothing and shelter and other essentials, care for the young, the ill, and the old, etc. etc.) - but also share these resources in such a way that entire cultures and peoples could continuously do these amazing things for hundreds and hundreds of thousands of years?

~ Steve


On Jan 28, 2010, at 4:44 PM, Deborah Rockstroh wrote:

Hi Steve, Phil and all,
(apologies that my response is back in the middle of the thread, it has taken a while to put into words but I hope it makes sense, and welcome your
thoughts):

In episode 1 of the series, Alan Alda makes the comment that because 'we continue to exist today', modern humans are superior to Neanderthals. So along similar lines, indigenous Australians who were recently identified as being the longest continuous cultural group to inhabit one place (up to 60,000 years in the desert according to scientific analysis), can be thought
of as superior in the way they organised and balanced their social,
technical and environmental relationships. There is much that the recent colonisers could learn from these relationships - particularly in light of the rhetorical concern for 'climate change' and 'sustainability' - but to a
technological society that advanced by consuming, accumulating and
exploiting resources, such values are not acknowledged as worthwhile
pursuits.

It is along these lines I question that Neanderthals were different or
inferior based on their tools not progressing as far or as fast as
technological development has for modern humans - as these are measurements
valued by the measurers, who live in a society that holds progress and
complex technological developments as something to aspire towards, as
'advanced'. Likewise, if Neanderthals possessed another form of the 'spark', perhaps it is just that homo sapiens were driven to harness it due to the new possibilities they had seen from their journeys. Possibilities that once accessed, would enable them to dominate, accumulate and exploit resources even further. An aspect of (greed? in) the human spark that continues to drive modern humans to search for possible resources in other lands (eg
Iraq), outer space and the ocean depths.

Rather than delineating between Neanderthals and modern humans, I see the
spark as differentiating both Neanderthal and homo sapiens from other
animals, but not from each other. Although other animals make and use tools, they do so from biologically innate and/or imitated learning; whereas it appears that Neanderthals cultivated and perfected the tool similar to homo sapiens, both across generations and through successive generations as a shared and cumulative process (as per Tomasello's "ratcheting"). To think stone tool making is simple or innate underestimates the precision required, and the fundamentally cultural nature of this development; the knowledge and skills required to select the right type of rock, strike it repeatedly with
another harder rock in exactly the right way until the tool forms the
utilitarian shape, then know how to use it to (kill and) carve up a wild beast to sustain the group. It also requires a social order that allows and supports the tool maker while crafting the tool, recognising the time spent for testing, selecting optimal processes will be justified by means- ends returns; that it will be used in future hunting events - itself a complex social activity that to be successful, requires highly developed forms of organisation and communication. It would be a challenge for anyone (or a group) of us to walk out into the open and emulate this successfully before starvation set in, even with our modern knowledge that such tools/ weapons
can be made from stones.

Deb


-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca- bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
Behalf Of Phil Chappell
Sent: Wednesday, 27 January 2010 8:54 AM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] Human spark TV show: when did the sparks begin?

Geoffrey Blainey's 'Triumph of the Nomads - A History of Aboriginal
Australia' suggests just that, Steve and is also a fascinating read for those interested in learning how humans conquered their environment through creative tool use and ongoing technological developments a long time before the 30 k dot on in history.It was the recent colonisation movement that,
sadly, led to the demise of that superior way of life.

And to think the nation celebrated Australia Day once again with the union
jack splashed around in all its glory.

Phil


On Wednesday, January 27, 2010, at 08:25AM, "Steve Gabosch"
<stevegabosch@me.com> wrote:
There is little doubt that humans began to set the world aflame when
they migrated to all its corners 30K+ years ago, and things have been
changing rapidly since, relatively speaking. Quite the wave of sparks
and consequent flames.  And quite the range of "genius" and
"stupidity" seems to have accompanied these new powers.  But here is
the question:  was 30 kya really the "debut," as the PBS intro says,
of human sparking?  Or did it begin much earlier - millions of years
earlier?

- Steve



On Jan 26, 2010, at 4:56 AM, David H Kirshner wrote:

Steve,
I didn't see much of the series, but one part I did see had to do with
stone tool-making of a hominid cousin--I think Neanderthal. The
comment
was that over thousands of years the technology of making this stone
tool did not progress an iota. So the fact of (somehow ???) inventing
the technology was a spark of genius, the spark didn't quite kindle
into
flame at that phylogenetic period.
David

-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu ]
On Behalf Of Steve Gabosch
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 1:30 AM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] Human spark TV show: when did the sparks begin?

Mike's comment about "many sparks," and that nicely made PBS show now
available online in at least 2 of the 3 episodes about "The Human
Spark -The Nature of Human Uniqueness", has gotten me thinking about a line of questioning that has been on my mind for some time, and which
I'll pose in terms of the spark metaphor.

An online introduction to the series suggests that the human spark may
be only 30K years old.

from:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/humanspark/about/about-the-series-introduction/3
5/

"In the first program, Alda witnesses the dazzling (apparent) debut of the Human Spark in the spectacular 30,000 year-old artwork carved and
painted on the walls of caves in France ..."

My question is: didn't the Neandertal peoples also possess some of the
'human spark'?  And how about our many other human cousins - didn't
humanity begin to 'spark' its way out of the animal world millions of
years ago?

Surely, migrating all over the planet 50K or more years ago, and the
development all the new technologies associated with that period -
sometimes dubbed the "Great Leap Forward" - (barbed hooks, traps, wall
paintings, etc. etc. etc.) - involved a new and dramatic wave of
sparks. And yes, from available evidence, modern humans, homo sapiens
sapiens, appear to be no more than about 200K years old (all dating
mentioned here is very rough, of course).

But what about other human (humanoid?) accomplishments - durable
production tools such as stone axes, fire, and so forth?  Those were
results and causes of human sparks, too - yes?

- Steve








On Jan 22, 2010, at 5:42 PM, mike cole wrote:

Larry---

Could we start to think in this way: elements of what created homo
sapiens
sapiens was not a single spark. it was, under very special
environmental
circumstances, perhaps involving also a mutation of some part of the
genome
simulataneously, the coordination of many sparks at one time and
place?

Compression of different humanoid populations in Northern Europe
during ice age circa 50k years ago give or take several k years?
mike

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Larry Purss <lpurss@shaw.ca> wrote:

Hi everyone
I posted this thought earlier and addressed it to Mabel by accident.
I thought I had lost it to the great unknown.
So here is my question directed through Mabel's response.

----- Original Message -----
From: Mabel Encinas <liliamabel@hotmail.com>
Date: Thursday, January 21, 2010 2:04 pm
Subject: RE: [xmca] Human spark TV show
To: Larry <lpurss@shaw.ca>


Hi, Larry.



Before saying anything... did you mean to send this note to xmca?



Mabel












Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 10:06:30 -0800
From: lpurss@shaw.ca
Subject: Re: RE: [xmca] Human spark TV show
To: liliamabel@hotmail.com




You are welcome Mabel.

I have a question about theoretically trying to connect the dots
around a theme of  "theory of mind" referred to in the
Human Spark and the notions of development.
The show pointed out that chimps have awareness of their own
perspective and may have limited capacity to "understand"
anothers intentionality. However humans have the "capacity" or
"potential" to hold up to 5 levels or perspectives of
intentionality of mind.
From a developmental perspective of "emergence" the theme that
this seems to point to being able to hold multiple perspectives
at the same time in "tension".
Lave's notion of development as being able to take different
"positions" (the structured term is "roles") may be an aspect of
this emergence.
Piaget's notion of de-centering may be pointing to a similar
capacity.
The development of the capacity to "reflect" or RE-cognize may
also be pointing in the same area.
Bhaktin's notion of multivoicedness may be another perspective.
G.H.Mead's and W. James social self  also seem to point to this.
Peirce's notion of "fallibility" or holding the tension of
"uncertainty" may also be implicated.
Do  others on CHAT see a biological component to this
capacity or the alternative is that our cultures are in such
tension with the modern forms of communication that out of this
cultural tension notions such as the above are being constructed
to contain and give meaning to the tension.
What do others think?

Larry
I was curious how others on CHAT

----- Original Message -----
From: Mabel Encinas <liliamabel@hotmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 11:12 pm
Subject: RE: [xmca] Human spark TV show
To: lpurss@shaw.ca


Larry,

Thank you for the reminder! I saw the other two: very good.


Mabel










Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 19:19:56 -0800
From: lpurss@shaw.ca
To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
Subject: [xmca] Human spark TV show

For people on the west coast of America, the 3rd installment
of "The Human Spark" is on at 8PM Pacific time.

Larry
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