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Re: [xmca] Rudolf Steiner
I agree that struggling to defend universal access (e.g. against tuition hikes, against discriminatory testing practices, and of course against private education in any way shape or form) is a largely defensive, and therefore largely negative, programme at present. I even agree with Larry that left at that it might lead to a purely individualistic approach to academic achievement.
But people have a way of not leaving it at that. The communities that have made public education work for them--Jews, Asians, and anti-lumpen sections of the black proletariat--tend to work as communities or at least as largish families. One of the most recent instances of this is how Korean students as a community have worked to "break the bank" at Educational Testing Services by sharing information on the internet for passing the TOEFL and other tests that keep them out of the USA.
Very often it is out of defensive struggles like this that positive programmes, and the organizations that embody them, are really created. Korea is a case in point: the current struggle over the union of civil servants and teachers really originated in the struggle to defend public education.
Andy, I couldn't agree more with at least one thing that you said below: it sure is a dreadful thing to say. Imagine a healthcare reform drawn up along the lines that you suggest: we establish preventive medicine healthcare plans for the very wealthy, and having shown that they appear to work for some mysterious reason, we hope to find them emulated by insurance companies in China and public health programmes in India.
Actually, Andy's solution of building clean, efficient, and inexpensive subway stations only where people won't actually need them and then hoping they will be emulated where people don't actually have cars has a rather sad record in Korean education. Seoul National University (which is NOT to be confused with Seoul National University of Education) is easily the most prestigious and academically "innovative" in the whole country. It's also the most inexpensive, thanks to state subsidies.
But more than half of the student population, you will be surprised to learn, comes from the richest areas here in the Kangnam District of Seoul, simply because these are the only students that can afford the private coaching and the elite prep schools you now need to get in. So the government subsidies for SNU are de facto a regressive tax: taking from poor people and giving to the children of the rich (and ultimately to their private schooling coaches).
Academically, this system has led to a form of smugness and do-nothingness which is not even being emulated by SNU itself. They recently voted to de-nationalize, apparently because that way they don't have to pay the professors fixed salaries determined by the Civil Service. Needless to say, this means higher tuition and a less diverse student population, which inevitably means the kind of mediocrity and sterility so thoroughly pioneered by private universities in Korea. But I suppose that hardly makes a difference any more.
David Kellogg
Seoul National University OF EDUCATION
(We teach the ones they won't touch!)
--- On Mon, 1/11/10, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
Subject: Re: [xmca] Rudolf Steiner
To: "Larry Purss" <lpurss@shaw.ca>
Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date: Monday, January 11, 2010, 12:52 AM
There is a counter-intuitive response to this connundrum Larry.
Short of a seizure of state power by the organised oppressed, the only way to change the education system is to introduce a good education policy in the most prestigious and privileged school. Here, any education policy will succeed. And it is likely that the successful education policy of the most prestigious school will be emulated elsewhere and eventually reach those who really need it.
This is, I know, a dreadful thing to say. But if you implement a progressive education policy in the poorest most downtrodden and despised locale, even if you defy nature and succeed, it will never be emulated. The only alterntive is political action, a social movement in other words.
Andy
Larry Purss wrote:
> Searching for the holy grail? of schools which promote critical thinking.
> Instead of focusing on what would make the "ideal" school would there be more benefit in having a conversation or Discourse on the best examples that currently exist such as the 5th dimension project or the best Waldorf school and why they are considered the "best". The concept of discussing what are currently "best practices" and then encouraging the dissemination and elaboration of these ALTERNATIVE narratives would give recognition to educators who are actually working with children now in ways that challenge the taken for granted notions of schooling. These alternative models could be contrasted with the dominant narrative accounts of schooling in order to make more explicit the implicit biases in dominant models of schooling Having ongoing conversations between people who have actually created alternative educational models would have the benefit of engaging with social practices which already exist and people can go and observe the results
for themselves.
> There would be continuing disagreement and ideological struggles as people contested the validity claims of each model but there would at least be the benefit of engaging with educators who are in the "trenches" and have knowledge of how difficult it is to actualize their ideals.
> When I listen to Obama speak about his "ideal" for schools I've heard him talk about creating many alternative models and the ones that are "successful" as models would be expanded. I recognize the word "successful" brings us back to the spirit of this thread and the question of whether the state is able to move beyond "transmission". Andy's comment that there are always niches where alternatives can exist is true. I wonder if its possible to create a political climate of de-centralization that allows for the tolerance of alternative voices that creates an opening for discussion across Discourses where it isn't a winner take all framework. I also recognize that my suggestion may be too idealistic because people without a "voice" can't get the recognition (or power) to create alternative models of schooling. Promoting "choices" and "alternatives" may just perpetuate choice for the privileged and leave the "voiceless" in substandard schools. That
is a political question of social justice. My point is that we should promote the expectation that a conversation between various models in a climate of fallibility and not certainty is an IDEAL to strive for. This is proposed in the same spirit as the "ideal" of a university where scholars can take different positions and there are structures which will support them. Again I know the reality is vastly different from the ideal but at least this ideal is assumed and people do organize and act to try to protect this ideal.
> The comment that the best we can do in a democratic state is give everybody the opportunity to go to school and a few working class students will at least escape their bondage may be a realistic appraisal but it focuses on the "individual" as having the opportunity to change. When the focus is on changing PARTICULAR schools or creating new models, then there is a possibility of all the students who attend that school to benefit. This is an "ideal" around which alternative social practices and Discourses can emerge.
> I work in state schools and I would like to see schools as "intermediate" communities (between the individual and the state) have the opportunity to create alternative models. I also recognize that the term "intermediate community" is an essentialized and reified notion which is not an objective fact. However, as Judith Buter stated there may be a place for STRATEGIC essentializing. It is easy to deconsruct every position as essentialized and reified but Discourses are necessary in order to organize and create structures that endure over time (like the 5th dimension project.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> Date: Sunday, January 10, 2010 4:46 pm
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Rudolf Steiner
> To: David Preiss <ddpreiss@me.com>
> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>
> > Well if our govt is to be believed, the Holy Grail is
> > available on eBay. All you need is the information to make
> > an informed choice.
> >
> > a
> >
> > David Preiss wrote:
> > >
> > > And the question that complements this one is whether schools
> > have the
> > > human and intellectual resources (not to say financial
> > resources or time
> > > available) to be able to indulge in critical thinking... and
> > not to turn
> > > their work in just blind reduction of complexity.
> > >
> > > David
> > > still looking for the holy grail
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jan 10, 2010, at 9:30 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
> > >
> > >> Yes, and one of the other devil-and-the-deep-blue-sea
> > questions is:
> > >>
> > >> On the one hand, a practice organized around the rigid
> > application of
> > >> a once-good idea which is way outside of the ethos of
> > everyday life
> > >> (sectarianism);
> > >>
> > >> On the other hand, the norms of the "really existing
> > democracy" which
> > >> is the taken-for-granted normality.
> > >>
> > >> To stand against the stream usually means to cling tightly to
> > an
> > >> eccentric idea, and hold on no matter what anyone else thinks
> > or does.
> > >>
> > >> That's why I think the question raised by Jay is so important
> > - how to
> > >> enter into reality critically?
> > >>
> > >> Andy
> > >>
> > >> David Preiss wrote:
> > >>> Taking into consideration all the posts on this thread, it
> > seems that
> > >>> finding a school that balances the development of higher
> > >>> psychological processes, consideration of teachers and
> > students'
> > >>> humanity and its privileged role as cultural
> > transmitters /
> > >>> renovators is more difficult than finding the holy grail.
> > >>> Probably, a Waldorf-life school is as distant from
> > what many of us
> > >>> here may consider a reasonable school as the more
> > conventional
> > >>> schools we commonly criticize are, with all their
> > unidimensional
> > >>> emphasis on overachievement, ranking / discrimination of
> > students and
> > >>> encapsulated knowledge.
> > >>> And that for those of us that have the cursed "privilege" or
> > the
> > >>> illusion of choice: most of the parents in the world are
> > forced to
> > >>> send their kids to horrible places where even raising this
> > question
> > >>> is out of place and where concerns of everyday survival rank
> > first in
> > >>> the list of priorities.
> > >>> Alas!
> > >>> David
> > >>> On Jan 10, 2010, at 1:00 PM, Leif Strandberg wrote:
> > >>>> I remember the first time I visited a Waldorf school in
> > Sweden. It
> > >>>> was 1978, and I was impressed of the calm atmosphere, the
> > dancing
> > >>>> (eurytmi) the painting (wet in wet), their
> > interconnectedness with
> > >>>> environment, vegetarian food, alternative medicine, water
> > cleaning
> > >>>> etcetera.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> When I visited this particular school (it is the most
> > famous one
> > >>>> here in Sweden, outside the town Soedertaelje, founded
> > 1949, and has
> > >>>> been supported, and with regular inspection, since then)
> > last year,
> > >>>> more than 30 years after my first impressions, I saw
> > exactly the
> > >>>> same thing (!) They were doing the same things!
> > >>>>
> > >>>> so, the creativity in Waldorf schools must have some limits
> > ;-)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I am not saying that these schools are bad for
> > children - but from
> > >>>> a CHAT-perspective.... let's say... we have at least
> > a lot to talk
> > >>>> about
> > >>>>
> > >>>> They are dedicated to greek ideas about temperaments,
> > Goethe and
> > >>>> Rosseau... and the natural child
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I prefer Villon, Rabelais, Voltaire and Diderot.... and
> > Vygotsky...
> > >>>> and cultural-historical children performing together, doing
> > what's
> > >>>> not yet here
> > >>>>
> > >>>> You can watch some pictures of their beautiful architecture on:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> http://www.antroposofi.info/jaerna/
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Leif - not so waldorfian - and absolutely not a Steinerian
> > >>>> and nowadays not even a vegetarian
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 10 jan 2010 kl. 14.18 skrev arthur@fi.uu.nl:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> A Dutch perspective on your question Andy:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Unlike in the USA and UK, Steiner schools are subsidized
> > by the Dutch
> > >>>>> government, just as Montessori, Jenaplan, Kees Boeke,
> > Dalton etc.
> > >>>>> Hence
> > >>>>> they fall under regular inspection. As a kid I attended a
> > very good
> > >>>>> Steiner school (7-12 yrs), which worked for me, for
> > several reasons
> > >>>>> also
> > >>>>> mentioned by others (using head, heart & hands, safe
> > environment, no
> > >>>>> attainment pressure, much attention for nature, creativity
> > etc).
> > >>>>> But as
> > >>>>> with all schools, there are very good and very bad ones in
> > our
> > >>>>> country.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Steiner is indeed off mainstream, yet it is interesting
> > how
> > >>>>> influential
> > >>>>> his anthroposophy has been in several areas of life:
> > >>>>> - health care (there are anthroposophic doctors and medicine)
> > >>>>> - organic food (biologisch-dynamisch with strict rules for
> > growing and
> > >>>>> treating the soil)
> > >>>>> - finance (a Dutch bank, Triodos, based its principles on
> > >>>>> anthroposophy,
> > >>>>> and was lately awarded as the most sustainable bank here).
> > >>>>> - and of course education
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> A PhD student from Groningen University made a comparison
> > of
> > >>>>> children's
> > >>>>> play in regular and Steiner schools. Another PhD student
> > discovered
> > >>>>> poor
> > >>>>> results for maths in secondary education but a positive
> > attitude
> > >>>>> towards
> > >>>>> learning (Hilde Steenbergen).
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Btw, I think Steiner's early work in philosophy - much
> > less
> > >>>>> contentious
> > >>>>> than his later work - might be interesting to anyone
> > interested in
> > >>>>> Hegel,
> > >>>>> Marx etc from a 1900 perspective (he had a PhD in
> > philosophy). He
> > >>>>> had a
> > >>>>> very non-materialistic interpretation of Hegel etc. I
> > don't know
> > >>>>> his work
> > >>>>> on Goethe very well.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Arthur
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> I have been researching Goethe and his scientific ideas, and
> > >>>>>> after a long time I came across a book which tells in detail
> > >>>>>> of how his ideas originated and explains them very clearly
> > >>>>>> and convincingly. The point I am interested in of course is
> > >>>>>> the Urphaenomen, a.k.a., unit of analysis, and as Goethe and
> > >>>>>> Davydov both insist, a unit of analysis which is given to
> > >>>>>> the senses.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> The author of the book is *Rudolph Steiner*, the same
> > >>>>>> Rudolph Steiner who started up Steiner Schools. I can get an
> > >>>>>> idea of his life and work from Wikipedia and so on, and it
> > >>>>>> certainly is way off the mainstream, if I could put it that
> > >>>>>> way. However, I would be interested in a brief response
> > >>>>>> from xmca-ers on the success or otherwise of his schools.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Andy
> > >>>>>> --
> > >>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
> > --------------
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Hegel Summer School
> > >>>>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/hss10.htm
> > >>>>>> Hegel, Goethe and the Planet: 13 February 2010.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>> David Preiss
> > >>> http://web.mac.com/ddpreiss/
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> xmca mailing list
> > >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----------
> > >> Hegel Summer School
> > >> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/hss10.htm
> > >> Hegel, Goethe and the Planet: 13 February 2010.
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> xmca mailing list
> > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> > > David Preiss
> > > http://web.mac.com/ddpreiss/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > -------
> > Hegel Summer School
> > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/hss10.htm
> > Hegel, Goethe and the Planet: 13 February 2010.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> o
-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/hss10.htm
Hegel, Goethe and the Planet: 13 February 2010.
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