Re: [xmca] Znak and Priznak

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

neat, peg.
Gotta learn about squirrel writing!
got me pondering about meaning
and blushing tomatoes!

mike


On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 8:36 AM, Peg Griffin <Peg.Griffin@att.net> wrote:

> Grice does it more like this:
> Tomatoes as well as squirrels and humans can express "meaning natural."
>
> Both squirrels and humans also understand the "meaning natural."   I don't
> know about other tomatoes.
>
> Tomatoes, though, don't express "meaning non-natural."
> Squirrels?  I don't know about squirrels and the expression of non-natural
> meaning; those cute sexy bonobos, though, they do express and understand
> meaning non-natural (according to fairly recent work on their "writing" in
> the dirt).
>
> A human blush is "meaning natural" but tomatoes and squirrels (and some
> humans) may not attend to it or "get it."
> A human's sun-burn is meaning non-natural, too.  But it arises and we work
> it out differently than we would a blush.
> And humans with different socio-cultural resources may interpret the blush
> differently.
>
> Meaning non-natural includes language and other socio-cultural conventional
> systems, whether static and limited or generative and creative, explicit,
> implied, or inferred via reliance on implicatures.
> Grice has written about indexicality clearly within the meaning non-natural
> realm but not much related to Pierce's index, I think.
> So not sure if any one of this matters to priznak.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of mike cole
> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 10:59 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Znak and Priznak
>
> So pre-znak is natural line of development, while znak is cultural line?
> Naw. My squirrels know when my tomatoes are ripe, darn critters.
> mike
>
> On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Peg Griffin <Peg.Griffin@att.net> wrote:
>
> > BTW, H. P. Grice used an example like "redness of a tomato ... that it
> > is ripe" when he was discussing his distinction between "meaning
> > natural" and "meaning non-natural."
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > On Behalf Of Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 4:14 AM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Znak and Priznak
> >
> > I would say that znak is closer to index but priznak may be also some
> > real quality (redness of a tomato is a priznak that it is ripe) may be
> > priznak we can see as pre znak?
> > Bella Kotik
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 12:48 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Hi, XMCA,
> > >
> > > One more extemporaneous question.
> > >
> > > Do you know something about any relations between the Russian term
> > > "priznak"
> > > and the peircean concept of "index"? There are many mentions to
> "priznak"
> > > in the
> > > "Studies on the history of behavior: ape, primitive, and child" from
> > > Vygotsky and Luria... and, of course, a "priznak" must be a kind of
> > > "znak" (sign)...
> > > But no
> > > necessarily the "priznak"'s role, in some kinds of relations between
> > > human beings and his environment, is posed in strictly semiotic
> > > terms along the book...
> > > Can we
> > > find something more about the role of "index" in Vygotsky theory of
> sign?
> > > How
> > > does Russian semiotics designate Pierce typology of sings, for
> instance?
> > >
> > > Thank you very much.
> > >
> > > Achilles.
> > > >From Brazil.
> > >
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> > --
> > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
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