Garbarino & Co. look at a number of zones of conflict, such as the Gaza Strip, and among other things observe that "fanatical" ideology is a vital support for people, especially children, who are faced with enormous moral and emotional pressures. Not hard to see why.
Vygotsky mentions first of all in his explanation of how adolescents acquire concepts as part of a completely new type of thinking characteristic of the "transitional period," the entry into and an interest in ideology. Ideology has the same psychological structure as "science" (cf Davydov's paper on "scientific concepts") especially the abstract sciences like maths and physics. He also says that the child who has just arrived at concepts cannot acquire dialectical thought. This means that adolescents first acquire conceptual thought in the form of relatively rigid systems of meaning, a.k.a., "fanatical" ideology.
This rings true to me. The child forced to grow up before their time who have to make sense of the wider world of societal life, politics and war, acquires fanatical, or at least, overly rigid or simplified *ideology*. What greater ideologist is there than the young Red Guard?
Does this ring true or false to people who have more experience than I do in this business?
Andy Duvall, Emily wrote:
Beah's story is amazing... there was a very good interview with him thatis well worth digging for and listening to/viewing. If you search, child soldier, on amazon you will find a plethora ofofferings. I would also suggest a few others... Iqbal by F. D'Adamo about the rug making industry in Pakistan (Iqbal was assassinated for his work in fighting child labor after he escaped and became an international icon in the war)... there are other biographies on his life The Circuit, by F. Jimenez may be a bit out of the realm... child of an illegal immigrant... it is autobiographical, by the way. Peter Sis' book, The Wall, is an interesting memoir/ graphic novel on growing up behind the Iron Curtain as a child... being encouraged to report on loved ones, etc makes for an interesting view of soldiering. The Latehomecomer: A Hmong Family Memoir by Kao Kalia Yang is another interesting perspective on children coming from war Another direction that could be interesting are Viet Nam and other vet memoirs... my husband went over as a teenager and his experiences in recon totally changed him... in other words, the PTSD... I suspect that this is the underlying, common effect that you will find in many storiesinvolving children war, being stolen/sold, abandoned, etc.Some texts, such as Hiroshima, No Pika by T. Maruki, biographical narrative, don't really get at the child's experience with a child's voice, but are powerful nonetheless. I also have on my 'to be read' shelf: Shattered: Stories of Children and War, by J. Armstrong Survivors: True Stories of Children in the Holocaust A. Zullo Stolen Voices: Young People's War Diaries by Z FilipovicBest, Em-----Original Message----- From: firstname.lastname@example.org [mailto:email@example.com] On Behalf Of David Preiss Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:15 AM To: firstname.lastname@example.org; eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity Subject: Re: [xmca] Adult before their time? Dear Andy,As regards child soldiers, this recent book is a good reference: A Long Way Gone: Memoirs of a Boy Soldier by Ishmael Beah.It is testimonial. Best, David On Oct 22, 2009, at 11:33 AM, mike cole wrote:[mailto:email@example.comAndy -- Two quick points:1. The consequences are for development of the whole child in society so focusing on the cognitive seems especially counterproductive in the cases of interest to you and xmca. And may, indeed, provide a privileged site for inquiry. But its very dangerous. A colleague of a friend of mine doing suchresearch was shot and killed in Rio a few days ago. 2. Good Brazilian street children or child soldiers or several cognate categories and you should be inundated. I was. mikeOn Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 6:19 AM, Andy Blunden <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:Mmm that looks interesting in itself, about the modern fad among middle class parents for pushing their children to overperform academically. But I suspect I am not going to get an answer to what's intriguing me that way.When a child is suddenly deprived of their support systems - becoming a street urchin or a child soldier for example or having to look after their siblings if the parents become dysfunctional - then they are thrown into a social situation which we talked of before, in which it is possible to learnconcepts, the very opposite of course of the "scientific concepts"inculcated at school. I was wondering if the result is a very stunted kind of thinking (like the policeman who knows how to spot a criminal by age, race, and so on) or precocious wisdom which understands that words express social meanings, not just what they appear to mean on the surface, andwatches the lay of the land. But what is that precocious worldliness in cognitive terms? Andy mike cole wrote:Early claims: David Elkind, The hurried child. Cambridge. DeCapo Press. 1981On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 3:25 AM, Peter Smagorinsky <email@example.com> wrote:Not quite the same sort of trauma, but there's plenty of pop analysis onthe life of Michael Jackson these days. p Peter Smagorinsky Professor of English Education Department of Language and Literacy Education The University of Georgia 125 Aderhold Hall Athens, GA 30602 firstname.lastname@example.org -----Original Message----- From: email@example.com] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 4:19 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [xmca] Adult before their time? Can anyone tell me of any research done on the idea of children who have "grown up before their time," as a result of war, family disaster or otherwise having been projected into the adult world on their own? And how is such a characterization "adult before their time" made? On the basis of the use of concepts?? Lack of interest in play?? Andy Tony Whitson wrote:I would add Nietzsche, along with Heidegger and Derrida, to what Michaelsays.Heidegger is sometimes dismissed as incomprehensible, but Nietzsche and Derrida are more often treated as wild and reckless writers who can befun to read, but without looking for any careful argument.If you don't expect either of them to be writing seriously, you won't read them seriously and you won't see what they're writing. N said as much, but then if you're not taking him seriously, you won't take himseriously when he says that, either.I saw an interview with D once where the interviewer, in the interview, in D's presence, ventured that deconstruction was basically the same asthe US sitcom "Seinfeld"--It's just a matter of taking everything ironically. D replied that if you want to know anything aboutdeconstruction, you need to do some reading. The interview was prettymuch over at that point. On Wed, 21 Oct 2009, Wolff-Michael Roth wrote:I don't know what people read that Heidegger has written. I personallyhave not met a person who has read Sein und Zeit to the end, people appear to read secondary literature rather than the primary. Moreover,nobody appears to be talking/writing about Unterwegs zur Sprache(David K., this should be of interest to you), or about Holzwege and other works. First, I can't see anything that would fit the politicalideas of Nazism, for one, and I can't see anything that would beunderstandable in terms of the quote that Steve contributes below.I do understand that Heidegger is difficult to read---I had to takerepeated stabs since I first purchased Sein und Zeit in 1977.Heidegger, by the way, does very close readings of some ancient Greek philosophers. And when you pay attention to his writing, and do the same with Derrida, for example, then you begin to realize that thelatter has learned a lot from the former.Now that my English is better than my German ever has been (althoughit was my main language for 25 years) I personally know about the problems of translations. Above all, any of the mechanicaltranslations that have been proposed on this list won't do even thesimplest of texts. And it is about more than literal content.We can learn from both of them, Heidegger and Derrida, that things are more difficult than they look, and even more difficult than readingtheir texts. Michael On 21-Oct-09, at 7:37 PM, Steve Gabosch wrote:I appreciate Martin's insights on Heidegger, as I do those of others. I for one don't really know that much about Heidegger's ideas. I amglad to learn from those that have studied him. Here is an interesting glossary entry on Heidegger in a book of Marxist essays by George Novack (1905-1992), Polemics in MarxistPhilosophy: Essays on Sartre, Plekhanov, Lukacs, Engels, Kolalkowski, Trotsky, Timpanaro, Colletti (1978). The glossary to the book waswritten by Leslie Evans and edited by Novack."Heidegger, Martin (1889-1976) - German existentialist philosopher. His ideas were best expounded in Sein un Zeit (Being and Time, 1927). A philosopher of irrationalism. Heidegger maintained that the chief impediment to human self-development was reason and science, which led to a view of the world based on subject-object relations. Humans were reduced to the status of entities in the thing-world which they were thrown (the condition of "thrownness"). This state of inauthentic being could be overcome neither through theory (science) nor social practice, but only by an inward-turning orientation toward one's self, particularly in the contemplation of death. Heidegger was influenced by Kierkegaard and Husserl (see entries), and in turn deeply affected the thought of Sartre, Camus, and Marcuse. He was himself a chair of philosophy at the University of Freiburg in 1928 after his mentor,Edmund Husserl, had been forced to relinquish it by the Nazis.Heidegger supported Hitler, which led to his disgrace at the end ofWorld War II and his retirement in 1951 to a life of rural seclusion." (pg 307-308) - Steve On Oct 21, 2009, at 5:04 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:I think Martin is completely right in the proposition that (takingaccount of the continuing fascination the academy has with Heidegger)his works should be read to understand why and how Fascism andHeidegger's philosophy supported each other and what should be doneabout it.As Goethe said "The greatest discoveries are made not by individualsbut by their age," or more particularly every age is bequeated a certain problematic by their predecessors, but the differentphilosophers confront that problematic in different ways. To say thatthose on either side of the battle lines in the struggle of aparticular times have something in common, seems to be in danger ofmissing the point.Also, in my opinion, Husserl and Heidegger may have been respondingto Hegel, but between them they erected the gretest barrier tounderstanding Hegel until Kojeve arrived on the scene. But that'sjust me. A grumpy old hegelian. Andy Martin Packer wrote:A few days ago Steve made passing reference to an article thatapparently Tony had drawn his attention to, titled "Heil Heidegger." I Googled and found that it is a recent article in the Chronicle ofHigher Education.<http://www.chroniclecareers.com/article/Heil-Heidegger-/ 48806/> The focus of the article is Heidegger's links with and support of the Nazis, and its principal recommendations are that we should stop paying attention to Heidegger, stop translating and publishing hiswriting, and "mock him to the hilt."I feel I should comment on this, since I have occasionally drawn on Heidegger's work in these discussions. I certainly have no intention of apologizing for Heidegger, who seems to have been a very nasty person, who was responsible for some deplorable actions. I do want to question, however, the proposal that because of these facts weall would be better off ignoring his writing.I was introduced to Heidegger by a Jewish professor of philosophy who shared his last name (coincidentally as far as I know) with one of the best-known victims of antisemitism. At that time less wasknown about Heidegger's Narzism, but by no means nothing, and Irecall discussion in the classroom of the issue. I came to feel that the last thing one should try to do is separate the man's work from his life. Perhaps if he had been working on some obscure area of symbolic logic, say, that would have been possible, but Heidegger had written a philosophy of human existence, and this would seem to *demand* that there be consistency between what he wrote and how helived. Indeed, perhaps it would be important to study the man'swritings to try to understand where he went wrong; at what point inhis analysis of human being did Heidegger open the door to thepossibility of fascism? I think in fact that it is in Division II ofBeing and Time, where Heidegger is describing what he called'authentic Dasein,' which amounts to a way that a person relates to time, specifically to the certainty of their own death, that themistake is made and the door is opened to evil. Carlin Romano, the author of the article, doesn't seem to knowHeidegger's work very well. Dasein ("being there," i.e. being- in- the-world) is not a "cultural world," nor do "Daseins intersect," as he puts it. (But I suppose that he is mocking Heidegger.) And that brings me to my other reason for recommending that we continue to read Heidegger, his politics and (lack of) ethics notwithstanding. It is that his analysis throws light on issues that have been raised in this group, and were important to LSV and others. I am sure it seems odd to link a Nazi philosopher to a socialist psychologist, but I am hardly the first to see connections. Lucien Goldmann wrote"Lukacs and Heidegger," a book in which he acknowledged theincongruity but argued that there are "fundamental bonds" between the two men's work, that at the beginning of the 20th century "on the basis of a new problematic first represented by Lukacs, and thenlater on by Heidegger, the contemporary situation was slowlycreated. I would add that this perspective will also enable us to display a whole range of elements common to both philosophers, whichare not very visible at first sight, but which nevertheless constitute the common basis on which undeniable antagonisms are elaborated" (p. 1).What is this common basis? It is that of overcoming the separationbetween subject and object in traditional thought, overcoming subject/object dualism, by recognizing the role of history inindividual and collective human life, and rethinking the relation between theory and practice. As Michael wrote, Heidegger reexaminedthe traditional philosophical distinction between an object (abeing) and what it *is* (its Being), and rejected both idealism and essentialism to argue that what an object is (and not just what it 'means') is defined by the human social practices in which it isinvolved, and in which people encounter it. These practices, ofcourse, change over historical time, so the conditions for an objectto 'be' are practical, social, and historical. And since peopledefine themselves in terms of the objects they work with, the basisof human being is practical, social, and historical too.I continue to believe that this new kind of ontological analysis,visible according to Goldmann in the work of both Lukacs and Heidegger, influenced in both cases by Hegel, is centrally important. If we can learn from studying Heidegger how to acknowledge these cultural conditions without falling into a valorization of the folk, without dissolving individuals in thecollective (a failing of the Left just as much as the Right), thenwe will have gained, not lost, by reading his texts. Martin_______________________________________________xmca mailing list firstname.lastname@example.org http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca --------------------------------------------------------------------------Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/ Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, Ilyenkov $20 ea _______________________________________________ xmca mailing list email@example.com http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca _______________________________________________ xmca mailing list firstname.lastname@example.org http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca _______________________________________________xmca mailing list email@example.com http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca--------------------------------------------------------------------------Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, Ilyenkov $20ea _______________________________________________ xmca mailing list firstname.lastname@example.org http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca_______________________________________________ xmca mailing list email@example.com http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmcaDavid Preiss firstname.lastname@example.org http://web.mac.com/ddpreiss/ _______________________________________________ xmca mailing list email@example.com http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca _______________________________________________ xmca mailing list firstname.lastname@example.org http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
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