Dear Michael, Tony, and everybody-
I agree with Michael that probably any language allows intonational
ambiguity and disruption of the semantic structure and affordance. However,
since Russian has much more freedom of the word order than, let’s say,
English does, -- for example, in Russian, question is raised entirely by
intonation rather than by re-ordering words, like in English, -- arguably
intonation is more powerful for making meaning in Russian than in English
(more research is needed).
Also, as Tony seems to suggest, reliance on intonational meaning making
through the intonation-semantics contradiction is very popular in Jewish
culture both in Russia and in the US (and, probably, elsewhere). Let me
share a typical Russian-Jewish joke supporting this claim. Before the
President Reagan arrived to Russia in the 1980s to meet with Gorbachov for
the first time, Jewish refusniks were called to KGB where they were told,
“Reagan has requested to see you. If he asks you about immigration, you
must reply, ‘President Reagan, we don’t go!’ [Рейган, мы не
едем!] If you say anything else, you will go to GULAG. Jews, is it
clear for you?!” When the Soviet Jewish refusniks met the President Reagan
who demanded this meeting, they replied to him with an extreme surprise
intonation, “President Reagan, we don’t go?! [Рейган, мы не
едем?!]”
So, the nature of a language and a culture can increase affordances of
ambivalent, carnivalistic use of intonation.
What do you think?
Eugene
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
Behalf Of Michael Glassman
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 2:36 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: RE: [xmca] a minus times a plus
But his monologues are for the most part in English - at least these days.
He is the progeny of an interesting group called Borscht Belt comedians
(the Borscht Belt was a string of hotels up in the Catskills a few hours
outside of New York City).
_____
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Tony Whitson
Sent: Sat 5/2/2009 2:13 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: RE: [xmca] a minus times a plus
According to Wikipedia, "Jackie Mason" was born Yacov Moshe Maza (for
what it's worth).
On Sat, 2 May 2009, Michael Glassman wrote:
>
> Eugene,
>
> I would argue that the intonation is not so much related to language as
it is to culture - in essence a part of cultural capital that can be found
in Russia, but in a number of other places around the world with a number
of different languages. You use the example,
>
> -?? (da-da) is a good translation from Mogenbesser's Jewish English,
"Yeah, yeah" in Russian. As you, probably, know, Russian is very intonation-
based language - almost any word might have the opposite meaning with the
right intonation. Like for example, "Have you my taken my book?" "I need
your book badly!" ("?? ?? ???? ??? ??????≫ -- ≪????? ??? ????? ????
?????!≫) - it is difficult to translate this Russian exchange into English
because the response has the intonation indicating the opposite meaning
that its formal semantics suggests. One Russian (Soviet) poet commented
that Russian language does not support ≪?????≫ (i.e., report to a secret
police).
>
> But anybody who has listened to Jackie Mason, not such a good human being
but a pretty good comedian, has heard him using the type of intonation you
are discussing brilliantly in English - so brilliantly you would wonder how
it could work in any other language - but of course it could. I'm sure the
same intonation, or maybe different types of intonations expressing meaning
but especially sense, could be used in almost any language as long as the
speaker was comfortable with it. What is interesting about the use of
this type of intonation is when somebody uses it - at least in English - I
can make a pretty good guess about where they grew up in the United States.
Some people who are really good at this can even limit it to general
neighborhoods - and you immediately recognize certain cultural qualities
about that individual and it cuts through a lot of other information. On
the other end of the spectrum somebody could use the intonation perfectly
in Columbus Ohio and individuals would just understand the remark based on
the more straight forward understanding (and might consider you a little
alien for using the intonation). What also might suggest the intonation
being part of cultural capital rather than the language itself is the fact
the I think it is often time used as a form of intimacy, kidding, or making
fun in a non-maliscious way.
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Eugene Matusov
> Sent: Sat 5/2/2009 1:31 PM
> To: mcole@weber.ucsd.edu
> Cc: backontrack@wwscholars.org; 'Zoi Philippakos'; 'eXtended Mind,
Culture, Activity'; 'PIG'
> Subject: RE: [xmca] a minus times a plus
>
>
>
> Dear Mike and everybody-
>
>
>
> You wrote, "another example of binary logic which is anti-human". I
wonder what makes this logic anti-human is not necessary that it is binary,
but maybe the fact that it strives to be the universal, unconditional,
disembodied, and decontextualized. I think that limited and situated binary
relations can be humane. As you nicely put it before, the universal answer
to any problem is, "it depends" ;-) The big problem, of course, what it
depends on... (I always say to my grad students that the answer for the
latter question will be addressed in a future Advanced Grad Sociocultural
Seminar that I never teach J)
>
> ??
>
> -?? (da-da) is a good translation from Mogenbesser's Jewish English,
"Yeah, yeah" in Russian. As you, probably, know, Russian is very intonation-
based language - almost any word might have the opposite meaning with the
right intonation. Like for example, "Have you my taken my book?" "I need
your book badly!" ("?? ?? ???? ??? ??????≫ -- ≪????? ??? ????? ????
?????!≫) - it is difficult to translate this Russian exchange into English
because the response has the intonation indicating the opposite meaning
that its formal semantics suggests. One Russian (Soviet) poet commented
that Russian language does not support ≪?????≫ (i.e., report to a secret
police).
>
>
>
> Ed made an interesting and thought-provoking point, "Social relations
don't give rise to mathematics, but mathematics seems to give,
perspectivally, a rise to social relations." I think that in general, it is
a chicken-egg problem but I suspect that social relations have priority
over math. So, Ed, we have a respectful disagreement, indeed. The reason
for my suspicion is that usually, although not always, social relations
have a priority over everything else. For example, it seems that historical
emergency of geometry was a result of a certain development of private
property on land and conflicts associated with it. Certain (but not all!)
mathematical questions could emerge only within certain social relations.
One of these vivid examples can be mathematical division. I'm always amazed
how difficult for Western kids to understand fractional division leading to
a number bigger that divided. For example, 2 divided by ½ becomes 4.
Western understanding of fair sharing almost exclusively as splitting the
whole on equal but smaller parts (private property) makes very difficult to
consider a possibility for collective sharing in which the more people
share the more value the whole has. We have a PIG Lab of Internationally
Recognize Excellence - the more people use it, the more valuable it becomes
(to a point of course, ;-). By collective sharing, ten PIGgies virtually
have 10 labs! Or 1 divided on 1/10 is 10. I think this fractional division
reflects collective sharing (and collective fairness) in contrast to whole
number division based on private property sharing (and private property
fairness). It is interesting to study this question empirically....
>
>
>
> What do you think?
>
>
>
> Eugene
>
> PS I know that everyone in this XMCA discussion who replies to my
messages gets bounced message from the PIG email list (no connection to the
swine flu!). I try to resend your messages to the my PIGgy colleagues.
>
>
>
> ---------------------
>
> Eugene Matusov, Ph.D.
>
> Professor of Education
>
> School of Education
>
> University of Delaware
>
> Newark, DE 19716, USA
>
>
>
> email: ematusov@udel.edu
>
> fax: 1-(302)-831-4110
>
> website: http://ematusov.soe.udel.edu <http://ematusov.soe.udel.edu/>
<http://ematusov.soe.udel.edu/> <http://ematusov.soe.udel.edu/>
>
> publications: http://ematusov.soe.udel.edu/vita/publications.htm
>
>
>
> Dialogic Pedagogy Forum: http://diaped.soe.udel.edu
<http://diaped.soe.udel.edu/> <http://diaped.soe.udel.edu/>
<http://diaped.soe.udel.edu/>
>
> ---------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Mike Cole [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 10:01 PM
> To: Eugene Matusov
> Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; backontrack@wwscholars.org; Zoi
Philippakos; PIG
> Subject: Re: [xmca] a minus times a plus
>
>
>
> That it works to think that the enemy of your enemy is your friend is
another example
> of binary logic which is anti-human. Shit happens a lot, Eugene.
>
> Your yeah yeah example is in the increasingly long and equally
interesting trail of emails on
> this thread.
>
> da da
> ?
> zhanchit?
> mike
>
> On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Eugene Matusov <ematusov@udel.edu> wrote:
>
> Dear Mike--
>
> You wrote,
>> And for sure, Eugene, it is a cardinal error to believe that the enemy
>> of
>> your enemy is your friend. Maybe, maybe
>> not. Like all laws of social science, it all depends.
>
> Actually, it worked rather well during the WWII for the Allies (US-UK) and
> the USSR. Their cooperation in opposition to the Nazi Germany was governed
> by the Arabic wisdom "an enemy of your enemy is your friend." It can be
> powerful indeed but as you said it is not universal.
>
> As to the natural language and the formal logic (math), in natural
language
> (+1)*(+1)=-1, according to famous anecdote, "The most celebrated [Sidney]
> Morgenbesser anecdote involved visiting Oxford philosopher J. L. Austin,
who
> noted that it was peculiar that although there are many languages in
which a
> double negative makes a positive, no example existed where two positives
> expressed a negative. In a dismissive voice, Morgenbesser replied from the
> audience, 'Yeah, yeah.'"
>
> Take care,
>
> Eugene
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>
>> On Behalf Of Mike Cole
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:38 PM
>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>
>> Cc: backontrack@wwscholars.org; Zoi Philippakos; PIG
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] a minus times a plus
>>
>
>> Eugene, the mixture of plus and minus was the focus of my inquiry.
>> Natural
>> language understanding
>> of double negatives solves that problem for 2 numbers, beyond which I
>> assume
>> natural language needs
>> a notation system to keep track.
>>
>> So far Jerry Balzano's mirror explanation seems like it has the best
>> chance
>> with my grand daughter (in
>> part because i can actually imagine creating the demonstration that
>> lines up
>> intuition and notation). I
>> have not had time to read all of the notes in this thread owing to
>> heavy
>> teaching and extra lecture schedule
>> and a rash of recommendation letters out of season (which I will accept
>> as a
>> sub for swine flu). But
>> simply in scanning could I make a plea for socio-CULTURAL
>> constructivism? If
>> we do not keep what is
>> essential to human forms of human sociality in the discussion, we might
>> as
>> well be talking about bonobos
>> who, at least, know enough to make love not war.
>>
>> And for sure, Eugene, it is a cardinal error to believe that the enemy
>> of
>> your enemy is your friend. Maybe, maybe
>> not. Like all laws of social science, it all depends.
>>
>> mike
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 1:44 PM, Eugene Matusov <ematusov@udel.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear everybody--
>>>
>>> In response to Mike's profound inquiry of why a minus times a minus
>> is a
>>> plus, I was thinking that it is a mathematical model of the Arabic
>> wisdom
>>> that "an enemy of my enemy is my friend." Of course, the latter is
>> not
>>> always true -- we have plenty of examples when enemy of our enemy is
>> still
>>> our enemy (or just indifferent) and, thus, for these types of social
>>> relations, the mathematical model of (-1) x (-1) =1 does not work.
>> Just
>>> consider, for an example, the relations among the US, Al-Qaida, and
>> Saddam
>>> Hussein.
>>>
>>> The issue for me is why the Western civilization prioritizes (and
>> then
>>> mathematizes) social relations described in the Arabic wisdom. One
>> answer
>>> is
>>> because "the real world" works according to these social relations
>> (i.e.,
>>> the social relations is just an example of the truth out there). An
>>> alternative explanation is that the Western civilization can afford
>> and
>>> might be even benefit from imposing these social relations on "the
>> real
>>> world" that by itself is indifferent to any social relations (and
>> thus
>>> mathematical models). Any other explanations?
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>> Eugene
>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
>> bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>>>> On Behalf Of Ng Foo Keong
>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 12:23 PM
>>>> To: ablunden@mira.net; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] a minus times a plus
>>>>
>
>>>> Is Mathematics _merely_ socially constructed, or is there something
>>>> deeper and inevitable?
>>>>
>>>> I think this deserves a new thread, but I couldn't manage to start
>> one.
>>>> Let me try to draw out and assemble the line of discussion that
>> spun
>>>> off from the "a minus times a plus" thread.
>>>>
>>>> In her inaugural post to xcma, Anna Sfard about talked "rules
>>>> of the mathematical game" among other things.
>>>>
>>>> Then Jay Lemke said:-
>>>>> ...
>>>>> I think it's important, however, to see, as Anna emphasizes,
>>>>> that there is a certain "arbitrariness" involved in this, or
>>>>> if you like it better: a freedom of choice. Yes, it's
>>>>> structure-and-agency all over again! Structure determines that
>>>>> some things fit into bigger pictures and some don't, but
>>>>> agency is always at work deciding which pictures, which kind
>>>>> of fit, which structures, etc. And behind that values, and
>>>>> culture, and how we feel about things.
>>>>
>>>> -----
>>>> Then I (Ng Foo Keong) said:-
>>>>
>>>>> regarding structure and agency, arbitrariness:-
>>>>> i think now it's time for me to pop this question that has been
>>>>> bugging me for some time. i am convinced that mathematics is
>>>>> socially constructured, but i am not so convinced that
>> mathematics
>>>>> is _merely_ socially constructured. if we vary across cultures
>>>>> and different human activities, we might find different ways
>>>>> in which patterns and structure can be expressed and yet we might
>>>>> find commonalities / analogies. the question i am asking is:
>>>>> is maths just a ball game determined by some group of nerds who
>>>>> happen to be in power and dominate the discourse, or is there
>> some
>>>>> invariant, something deeper in maths that can transcend and unite
>>>>> language, culture, activity .... ?
>>>>
>>>> Foo Keong,
>>>> NIE, Singapore
>>>>
>>>> -----
>>>> Then Ed Wall said:-
>>>>
>>>>> Ng Foo Keong
>>>>> As regards your question about mathematics being socially
>>>>> constructed, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by
>>>>> mathematics or what kind of evidence would convince you it
>> wasn't.
>>>>> Suppose I said that there was evidence for innate subtizing.
>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>
>>>>
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>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
Tony Whitson
UD School of Education
NEWARK DE 19716
twhitson@udel.edu
_______________________________
"those who fail to reread
are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
-- Roland Barthes, S/Z (1970)
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