Joe:
I would state that your answers are thoughtful and if that involves being
wordy, sobeit. When you speak of the zpd being something more are you
thinking in terms of being able to provide context that allows for a child
to move beyond their development?
Very interested in your math curriculum work. Do you place credence in
Davidov's idea that theory comes before practice?
eric
JAG
<joe.glick who-is-at gmail To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
.com> cc:
Sent by: Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky and education
xmca-bounces who-is-at web
er.ucsd.edu
01/04/2007 11:23
AM
Please respond
to "eXtended
Mind, Culture,
Activity"
Eric:
I don't at all disagree, The first uses of the ZPD concept (in the
English version of Thought and Language were unidentified in the
index- but there were some in the text - rectified later in Kozulin's
retranslation where the ZPD occurs in the index - referring to what
might best be called "capacity differences" - something on the order
of the difference between a child who can move through two years of
intellectual growth with an adult's help compared to one who can move
4 years with an adult's help - the latter having the larger ZPD. It
seemed to be a measurement principle.
This was either an Individual Difference concept or something deeper.
I believe that it was something deeper since LSV's interests centered
largely on problems of the cultural nature of development - how does
culture relate to development - from this a lot follows - the
difference between the natural lines and cultural lines, the uses of
History (see Scribner on that) on the changing interfunctional
relationships - classical developmental questions.
When taken up in the U.S. I think that the concept became distorted -
as sort of an answer to Piaget's "development as constraining
learning" formulations. In that era it became a sort of learning
theory reincarnation.
When you speak of the "overall development" and "entwining" I am in
complete agreement - one of the questions that I'm trying to raise is
what does that mean? For psychology? For education? I feel that the
ZPD is too often taken as the whole of LSV's theory - and in my
stressing the "dialogical principle" as a necessary aspect of the the
concept - I am trying to stress that we are dealing with whole
children and culturally entwined beings - where the wholeness and the
entwineness is the critical part. I've been doing both workplace
learning studies (following up on Sylvia Scribner's work) and studies
of a constructive math curriculum where the dialogical principle is
central (kids have math "congresses" - comparing their answers - with
little guidance - beyond clever elicitations and occasional
provocations - by teachers.
I don't know all that much about brains and programs in them. I do
think that "crisis" is an important term that should be used very
gingerly. I'm not sure that "solving a problem" and "dealing with (or
having) a crisis" are all that different.
I find that I get very wordy when I "unlurk" so I'll leave some
dangling ends for new dialogue.
On 1/4/07, ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org> wrote:
>
> Joe:
>
> Since my job is in education I would like to speak to my preference for
> Vygotsky over other theorists. Rather than looking at learning and
> psychological functions he focuses on the overall development of a
> child/adolescent/adult and looks to answer how development/learning are
> intertwined. When he speaks about children facing a 'crisis' before they
> learn something I believe he is speaking more truthfully about how
children
> develop/learn. This is oposed to the traditionally held belief that
> children develop biologically and their brain is a computer that has
> different programs loaded into it separate from the biological growth
that
> is happening. The zpd is certainly a focus of what I would like to
> incorporate into my teaching but I do not view it as something that is
> created but rather as something that is measured in each individual child
> and then hopefully my lesson can capture the spirit of each individual
> student's present 'crisis'.
>
> what do you or others think?
>
> eric
>
>
>
> JAG
> <joe.glick who-is-at gmail To: "eXtended Mind,
Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> .com> cc:
> Sent by: Subject: Re: [xmca] Happy
New Year, dots of red wine and thoughts on the line
> xmca-bounces who-is-at web of development
> er.ucsd.edu
>
>
> 01/04/2007 12:40
> AM
> Please respond
> to "eXtended
> Mind, Culture,
> Activity"
>
>
>
>
>
>
> David:
>
> I am afraid that you are right about the job scene in the U.S.. I'm
> not sure I agree about the scene in the Spanish Speaking world. I've
> spent some time, for example at the Cathedra Vygotsky in Havana, and
> then was asked to give a lecture to the entire psychology faculty.
> After having lovely Vygotskian talks about, among other things,
> education - and introducing Bakhtin as someone they should be looking
> at I then faced the whole faculty and part of it was from the 50s -
> good old behavioristic approaches. I thought I was back in graduate
> school.
>
> I was just at a conference in Brazil (not quite Spanish speaking - but
> close) and there you are perfectly right - all the talks and all the
> books were about Vygotsky, or Vygotsky and Freud, Vygotsky and Marx
> and other combinations. But then again this was a conference devoted
> to that approach.
>
> I came away somewhat frustrated - since language divides us so much -
> and so too does the committment of governments to different goals -
> which in turn relates to "where the money is" and that often relates
> to what research is about. The possibility of our conference depended
> on the existence of a Socialist government in one of the suburbs of
> Sao Paulo.
>
> I am at an American University where Vygotsky is understood as an
> essential part of psychology. One of my colleagues is editing an
> exchange of letters between Jerome Bruner and A.R. Luria - and this is
> considered a valuable activity - even as we are under pressure to get
> grants. So there are some places where Vygotsky exists within
> psychology.
>
> The relation between Vygotsky and education I have always found to be
> puzzling - not because, as Mike rightly points out, Vygotsky was no
> stranger to educational issues. What I find puzzling is a sort of
> chicken and egg problem. Is Vygotsky so important to education because
> of the stress on one particular version of the ZPD concept - which was
> not, I still believe, at the center of his work. Vygotsky now exists
> by other names in other contexts - even as Luria is seen as a
> neuropsychologist more than a member of the Troika.
>
> I'm rambling too long but to shorten the whole thing - the job market
> in the U.S, is, in part driven by publication (where are the venues
> for this sort of publication?) by grants (what does the government
> think is important), by fads of professional associations (for example
> the American Psychological Association declared the 1990s as the
> "Decade of the Brain.")
>
> But there is a lively discourse - and still many publications about
> Vygotsky. And many other publications that could have been by Vygotsky
> had he not died in 1934 before so much had changed the world. To some
> extent, the "shrine" of Vygotsky exists in his name - maybe more in
> the Spanish Speaking world and maybe more in Education everywhere, but
> the spirit behind the shrine - what Vygotsky might have been and
> thought about had he lived, still exists in many distributed and maybe
> even some hidden forms.
>
> If we can shift focus to the present I think that there are more jobs
> for young scholars in the Vygotskian tradition than any of us think.
> They just have a lot of different names attached to them.
>
> I, for one, think that it is a good thing that Vygotsky's approach
> lives on in design, ergonomics, analysis of workplaces,
> communications. We live in a world of things and in worlds of
> communicative communities moreso than the worlds of the professor's
> office. The quandary facing you is that you were trained as an
> academic (that seems to be the business of universities) but the
> opportunities within the academic world are defined by somewhat alien
> ideologies. That might lead you to question the academic world more
> than the relation of Vygotsky to it.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> On 1/3/07, David Preiss <davidpreiss@uc.cl> wrote:
> > Joe,
> > But it is not psychology (at least mainstream psychology) where
> > Vygotsky exerts influence today, but out of psychology (education,
> > ergonomics, communication and so on). If a young scholar wants a
> > position in the USA and wants to do research in Vygotskian psychology
> > there is almost no place to look at there within psychology
> > departments (at least he comes up with a neuroscientific base for the
> > ZPD). I guess it was never different, though. It is curious that in
> > the spanish speaking world is quite the contrary: mainstream american
> > psychology is marginal and vygotskian psychology is at the core of
> > many departments and journals, which creates for us a different set
> > of complexities.
> > David
> >
> > On Jan 3, 2007, at 5:26 PM, JAG wrote:
> >
> > > It drives me crazy that I never get my own messages except as part of
> > > someone's response to them. This is, in part, what I mean by
> > > dialogicality.
> > >
> > > I know that Mind in Society didn't create - it rather unleashed an
> > > orgy of ZPD (almost as learning theory) studies - something we have
> > > discussed conversationally as well while gazing at wonder at some
past
> > > SRCD programs.
> > >
> > > My quibble is not with Vygotsky, but with the various forms of his
> > > appropriation.
> > >
> > > I think that you said it quite nicely (although I'm not sure it was
> > > you since your name was misspelled as Michael Coles) on the cover of
> > > the Wertsch (1985 book)
> > >
> > > "This lucid account of Vygotsky's ideas makes clear why he is
exerting
> > > such a great influence on contemporary psychology and education.
> > > Especially valuable is Wertsch's explanation of the links that
existed
> > > between the social and humane sciences and the work of Bakhtin, the
> > > Formalists, the Prague School and many others. Reading the book is a
> > > terrific educational experience."
> > >
> > > PS. I am that red dot on the map where the WTC used to be, and part
of
> > > a larger cluster of red dots where The United States, as we had
> > > imagined it, used to be.
> > >
> > > On 1/3/07, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> I think the issue of "lines of development" Anne Nelley, is very
> > >> important.
> > >> It speaks directly to Yrjo's emphasis on the horizontal and vertical
> > >> "directions"
> > >> of development. After all, in his view learning and development
> > >> make contact
> > >> at the nexus of the two and it can be all over the map! Absent
> > >> from ANY of
> > >> this
> > >> discussion is evidence of cultural effects OF AND ON phylogeny,
> > >> because the
> > >> motives of development are of phylotenetic, as well as
> > >> ontogenetic and
> > >> cultural
> > >> historical origin.
> > >>
> > >> Joe. In that same book fr, 1978 there was also Vygotsky's article
> > >> on play!
> > >> I think you are absolutely right about the educationalist bias,
> > >> but Vygotsky
> > >> was, you
> > >> will excuse the expression, a tad educationalist biased himself, in
> > >> practice. Part of the
> > >> attractiveness of Yrjo's ideas and those of others like yourself
> > >> who have
> > >> worked in the
> > >> workplace (where that workspace was not a faculty member's
> > >> office!) is that
> > >> it makes
> > >> clear the lifespan potential of the theory. It is not by accident
> > >> that so
> > >> many members of
> > >> xmca are interested in play, so that domain is now a part of the
> > >> discourse
> > >> too.
> > >>
> > >> Gotta give ourselves time to develop, so to speak.
> > >> mike
> > >>
> > >> \
> > >> On 1/3/07, JAG <joe.glick@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > Happy New Year to all:
> > >> >
> > >> > I've begun to think about the ZPD as having been too much
> > >> defined in
> > >> > educational terms - as "movement" from here to there
> > >> (intellectually).
> > >> > I think that the essential feature of the ZPD could/should be the
> > >> > "dialogicality" of it. From a dialogical perspective it is not one
> > >> > person moving another to a place where they were not, but rather
an
> > >> > engagement between two people - both of whom must be affected by
> > >> that
> > >> > engagement. I think that the original Doise and Mugny studies
> > >> pointed
> > >> > in that direction.
> > >> >
> > >> > Perhaps I am speaking too much from a U,S. perspective but the way
> > >> > that Vygotsky was "reintroduced" in 1978 in "Mind in Society"
> > >> shifted
> > >> > a great deal of focus on to ZPD as education. It was only later,
in
> > >> > 1985 when Wertsch began to introduce the dialogical notion of
> > >> the ZPD
> > >> > (seconded, interestingly in the introduction to "Vygotsky: The
> > >> Social
> > >> > Formation of Mind" by Zinchenko and Davydov) who seemed to
> > >> resisting
> > >> > the shift of the interpretation of Vygotsky in the direction of
> > >> > Activity Theory - with not enough Bakhtin - too much object
related
> > >> > action and not enough consciousness. Of course, that was 1985 when
> > >> > consciousness could more comfortably take its place along with
> > >> > activity.
> > >> >
> > >> > >From a dialogical view of the ZPD the question of "who benefits"
> > >> > shifts to other questions such as "What are the conditions of
> > >> > participation, either focal or peripheral?" "What does it mean
> > >> to have
> > >> > a dialogic encounter - especially when the institutional
> > >> framework is
> > >> > (too often) seen as education of the unknowing by those who know
> > >> - or
> > >> > think they do." In sum the issue might be framed as "how do you
> > >> create
> > >> > a dialogical space in places where everything is working against
> > >> it."
> > >> >
> > >> > Perhaps it requires both the wonderful wine and some of that
> > >> wonderful
> > >> > cheese.
> > >> >
> > >> > Joe Glick
> > >> >
> > >> > On 1/3/07, Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont
> > >> > <Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch> wrote:
> > >> > > Dear All,
> > >> > > I am a member of the (numerous!) red dots along the Alpine
> > >> lakes and
> > >> > > Rhein Walley (I suppose, but I am not sure because this map is
> > >> not as
> > >> > > precise as the satellite maps. If it were you might discover
> > >> that the
> > >> > > red color is due to the good red wine of our local vinyards in
> > >> the area,
> > >> > > I suppose).
> > >> > > I enjoy the discussions but very seldom manage to pop in as
> > >> they go very
> > >> > > fast and my administrative duties seem to slow me down
> > >> terribly. I would
> > >> > > enjoy coming back on the effects of peer interactions and the
> > >> learning
> > >> > > that can occur also with less advanced peers, as already
> > >> described in
> > >> > > the late '70. It raises a lot of questions about the ZPD: why
> > >> would the
> > >> > > development follow a predictable line? For psychological
> > >> (Piaget would
> > >> > > say for logical) reasons? Or for cultural reasons? If the
> > >> direction of
> > >> > > the line of development is largely given culturally then the
> > >> credibility
> > >> > > of peers in different cultural contexts might be quite
> > >> different . In
> > >> > > could be the social milieu at large, but also the micro
> > >> context created
> > >> > > by gender when the interacting peers are same sex or note (as
> > >> Charis
> > >> > > Psaltis's beautiful dissertation in Cambridge has shown).
> > >> > > Is development following a line...is another questions. What
> > >> is/are the
> > >> > > relevant dimension(s) on which we project it to see line(s)?
> > >> How does
> > >> > > the adult who reaches in the ZPD of the subject know that he
> > >> is bringing
> > >> > > the subject "next step" (on the line)?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I'd like to hear you Aleksandar tell us more on how to map human
> > >> > > cultural tools. Including those tools can make life livable in
> > >> difficult
> > >> > > situations. And what do they have to do with devlopment.
> > >> > > Best greetings,
> > >> > > Anne-Nelly
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Prof. Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont
> > >> > > Institut Psychologie et Education
> > >> > > Facult� des Lettres et Sciences humaines
> > >> > > Universit� de Neuch�tel
> > >> > > Espace L. Agassiz 1 CH 2000 Neuch�tel (Switzerland)
> > >> > > tel.:+41 32 718 18 56 fax: +41 32 718 18 51
> > >> > > email: anne-nelly.perret-clermont@unine.ch
> > >> > > http://www.unine.ch/psy
> > >> > > http://members.unine.ch/anne-nelly.perret-clermont/
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Aleksandar Baucal wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > Dear all,
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Happy New Year (for us who belong to ? (sub)world it is
> > >> 2007, what
> > >> > > > year is for other existing (sub)worlds?).
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > After some drinks I have a crazy idea. If it was possible to
> > >> map human
> > >> > > > genom with 3 bil. units, why it iwould not be possible to
> > >> map human
> > >> > > > cultural tools ...ehh...could you imagine trill of such
> > >> project :)
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Anyway, I wish you happy and cheerful New Dialogical Year
> > >> whatever
> > >> > > > number it is on your calendar :)
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Warmest greeting from small red dot from Belgrade
> > >> > > > Aleksandar Baucal
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Cathrene Connery wrote:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >> Greetings colleagues,
> > >> > > >> Just a quick hello from Central Washington University in
> > >> Ellensburg,
> > >> > > >> Washington. I'm not sure if I'm a dot on the map yet, but
> > >> thought
> > >> > I'd
> > >> > > >> introduce myself. Thanks to Ana, I started receiving xmca e-
> > >> mails
> > >> > about
> > >> > > >> a month ago. It has been refreshing to read everyone's
> > >> dialouge. A
> > >> > > >> powerhouse of energy collectively represents the members of
> > >> this
> > >> > > >> listserve!
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >> Just a little about myself......I fell in love with
> > >> Vygotsky in '89
> > >> > when
> > >> > > >> reading Thought and Language at Illinois while pursuing my
> > >> first
> > >> > > >> Master's degree. This past May, I graduated from the
> > >> University of
> > >> > New
> > >> > > >> Mexico with a doctorate in Language, Literacy, and
> > >> Sociocultural
> > >> > Studies
> > >> > > >> focusing on Bilingual / TESL Education. It was an honor to
> > >> have Vera
> > >> > > >> John-Steiner chair my committee. Emergent biliteracy,
> > >> multi-modal
> > >> > > >> meaningmaking, and teacher education reform on behalf of
> > >> culturally
> > >> > and
> > >> > > >> linguistically diverse children remain my great interests.
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >> My best wishes to you and your families for the upcoming
> > >> year. May
> > >> > you
> > >> > > >> experience peace, joy, and good health.
> > >> > > >> Todo lo mejor (All the best),
> > >> > > >> Cathrene
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >> M. Cathrene Connery, Ph.D.
> > >> > > >> Assistant Professor of Bilingual & TESL Education Central
> > >> Washington
> > >> > > >> University
> > >> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> > > >> xmca mailing list
> > >> > > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> > > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > _______________________________________________
> > >> > > > xmca mailing list
> > >> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >> > >
> > >> > > _______________________________________________
> > >> > > xmca mailing list
> > >> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >> > >
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > xmca mailing list
> > >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >> >
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> xmca mailing list
> > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> >
> > David Preiss, Ph.D.
> > Profesor Auxiliar / Assistant Professor
> >
> > Pontificia Universidad Catolica de Chile
> > Escuela de Psicolog�a
> > Av Vicu�a Mackenna 4860
> > Macul, Santiago
> > Chile
> >
> > Fono: 3544605
> > Fax: 3544844
> > e-mail: davidpreiss@uc.cl
> > web personal: http://web.mac.com/ddpreiss/
> > web institucional: http://www.uc.cl/psicologia
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> _______________________________________________
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