Eric:
I don't at all disagree, The first uses of the ZPD concept (in the
English version of Thought and Language were unidentified in the
index- but there were some in the text - rectified later in Kozulin's
retranslation where the ZPD occurs in the index - referring to what
might best be called "capacity differences" - something on the order
of the difference between a child who can move through two years of
intellectual growth with an adult's help compared to one who can move
4 years with an adult's help - the latter having the larger ZPD. It
seemed to be a measurement principle.
This was either an Individual Difference concept or something deeper.
I believe that it was something deeper since LSV's interests centered
largely on problems of the cultural nature of development - how does
culture relate to development - from this a lot follows - the
difference between the natural lines and cultural lines, the uses of
History (see Scribner on that) on the changing interfunctional
relationships - classical developmental questions.
When taken up in the U.S. I think that the concept became distorted -
as sort of an answer to Piaget's "development as constraining
learning" formulations. In that era it became a sort of learning
theory reincarnation.
When you speak of the "overall development" and "entwining" I am in
complete agreement - one of the questions that I'm trying to raise is
what does that mean? For psychology? For education? I feel that the
ZPD is too often taken as the whole of LSV's theory - and in my
stressing the "dialogical principle" as a necessary aspect of the the
concept - I am trying to stress that we are dealing with whole
children and culturally entwined beings - where the wholeness and the
entwineness is the critical part. I've been doing both workplace
learning studies (following up on Sylvia Scribner's work) and studies
of a constructive math curriculum where the dialogical principle is
central (kids have math "congresses" - comparing their answers - with
little guidance - beyond clever elicitations and occasional
provocations - by teachers.
I don't know all that much about brains and programs in them. I do
think that "crisis" is an important term that should be used very
gingerly. I'm not sure that "solving a problem" and "dealing with (or
having) a crisis" are all that different.
I find that I get very wordy when I "unlurk" so I'll leave some
dangling ends for new dialogue.
On 1/4/07, ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org> wrote:
>
> Joe:
>
> Since my job is in education I would like to speak to my preference for
> Vygotsky over other theorists. Rather than looking at learning and
> psychological functions he focuses on the overall development of a
> child/adolescent/adult and looks to answer how development/learning are
> intertwined. When he speaks about children facing a 'crisis' before they
> learn something I believe he is speaking more truthfully about how children
> develop/learn. This is oposed to the traditionally held belief that
> children develop biologically and their brain is a computer that has
> different programs loaded into it separate from the biological growth that
> is happening. The zpd is certainly a focus of what I would like to
> incorporate into my teaching but I do not view it as something that is
> created but rather as something that is measured in each individual child
> and then hopefully my lesson can capture the spirit of each individual
> student's present 'crisis'.
>
> what do you or others think?
>
> eric
>
>
>
> JAG
> <joe.glick who-is-at gmail To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> .com> cc:
> Sent by: Subject: Re: [xmca] Happy New Year, dots of red wine and thoughts on the line
> xmca-bounces who-is-at web of development
> er.ucsd.edu
>
>
> 01/04/2007 12:40
> AM
> Please respond
> to "eXtended
> Mind, Culture,
> Activity"
>
>
>
>
>
>
> David:
>
> I am afraid that you are right about the job scene in the U.S.. I'm
> not sure I agree about the scene in the Spanish Speaking world. I've
> spent some time, for example at the Cathedra Vygotsky in Havana, and
> then was asked to give a lecture to the entire psychology faculty.
> After having lovely Vygotskian talks about, among other things,
> education - and introducing Bakhtin as someone they should be looking
> at I then faced the whole faculty and part of it was from the 50s -
> good old behavioristic approaches. I thought I was back in graduate
> school.
>
> I was just at a conference in Brazil (not quite Spanish speaking - but
> close) and there you are perfectly right - all the talks and all the
> books were about Vygotsky, or Vygotsky and Freud, Vygotsky and Marx
> and other combinations. But then again this was a conference devoted
> to that approach.
>
> I came away somewhat frustrated - since language divides us so much -
> and so too does the committment of governments to different goals -
> which in turn relates to "where the money is" and that often relates
> to what research is about. The possibility of our conference depended
> on the existence of a Socialist government in one of the suburbs of
> Sao Paulo.
>
> I am at an American University where Vygotsky is understood as an
> essential part of psychology. One of my colleagues is editing an
> exchange of letters between Jerome Bruner and A.R. Luria - and this is
> considered a valuable activity - even as we are under pressure to get
> grants. So there are some places where Vygotsky exists within
> psychology.
>
> The relation between Vygotsky and education I have always found to be
> puzzling - not because, as Mike rightly points out, Vygotsky was no
> stranger to educational issues. What I find puzzling is a sort of
> chicken and egg problem. Is Vygotsky so important to education because
> of the stress on one particular version of the ZPD concept - which was
> not, I still believe, at the center of his work. Vygotsky now exists
> by other names in other contexts - even as Luria is seen as a
> neuropsychologist more than a member of the Troika.
>
> I'm rambling too long but to shorten the whole thing - the job market
> in the U.S, is, in part driven by publication (where are the venues
> for this sort of publication?) by grants (what does the government
> think is important), by fads of professional associations (for example
> the American Psychological Association declared the 1990s as the
> "Decade of the Brain.")
>
> But there is a lively discourse - and still many publications about
> Vygotsky. And many other publications that could have been by Vygotsky
> had he not died in 1934 before so much had changed the world. To some
> extent, the "shrine" of Vygotsky exists in his name - maybe more in
> the Spanish Speaking world and maybe more in Education everywhere, but
> the spirit behind the shrine - what Vygotsky might have been and
> thought about had he lived, still exists in many distributed and maybe
> even some hidden forms.
>
> If we can shift focus to the present I think that there are more jobs
> for young scholars in the Vygotskian tradition than any of us think.
> They just have a lot of different names attached to them.
>
> I, for one, think that it is a good thing that Vygotsky's approach
> lives on in design, ergonomics, analysis of workplaces,
> communications. We live in a world of things and in worlds of
> communicative communities moreso than the worlds of the professor's
> office. The quandary facing you is that you were trained as an
> academic (that seems to be the business of universities) but the
> opportunities within the academic world are defined by somewhat alien
> ideologies. That might lead you to question the academic world more
> than the relation of Vygotsky to it.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> On 1/3/07, David Preiss <davidpreiss@uc.cl> wrote:
> > Joe,
> > But it is not psychology (at least mainstream psychology) where
> > Vygotsky exerts influence today, but out of psychology (education,
> > ergonomics, communication and so on). If a young scholar wants a
> > position in the USA and wants to do research in Vygotskian psychology
> > there is almost no place to look at there within psychology
> > departments (at least he comes up with a neuroscientific base for the
> > ZPD). I guess it was never different, though. It is curious that in
> > the spanish speaking world is quite the contrary: mainstream american
> > psychology is marginal and vygotskian psychology is at the core of
> > many departments and journals, which creates for us a different set
> > of complexities.
> > David
> >
> > On Jan 3, 2007, at 5:26 PM, JAG wrote:
> >
> > > It drives me crazy that I never get my own messages except as part of
> > > someone's response to them. This is, in part, what I mean by
> > > dialogicality.
> > >
> > > I know that Mind in Society didn't create - it rather unleashed an
> > > orgy of ZPD (almost as learning theory) studies - something we have
> > > discussed conversationally as well while gazing at wonder at some past
> > > SRCD programs.
> > >
> > > My quibble is not with Vygotsky, but with the various forms of his
> > > appropriation.
> > >
> > > I think that you said it quite nicely (although I'm not sure it was
> > > you since your name was misspelled as Michael Coles) on the cover of
> > > the Wertsch (1985 book)
> > >
> > > "This lucid account of Vygotsky's ideas makes clear why he is exerting
> > > such a great influence on contemporary psychology and education.
> > > Especially valuable is Wertsch's explanation of the links that existed
> > > between the social and humane sciences and the work of Bakhtin, the
> > > Formalists, the Prague School and many others. Reading the book is a
> > > terrific educational experience."
> > >
> > > PS. I am that red dot on the map where the WTC used to be, and part of
> > > a larger cluster of red dots where The United States, as we had
> > > imagined it, used to be.
> > >
> > > On 1/3/07, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> I think the issue of "lines of development" Anne Nelley, is very
> > >> important.
> > >> It speaks directly to Yrjo's emphasis on the horizontal and vertical
> > >> "directions"
> > >> of development. After all, in his view learning and development
> > >> make contact
> > >> at the nexus of the two and it can be all over the map! Absent
> > >> from ANY of
> > >> this
> > >> discussion is evidence of cultural effects OF AND ON phylogeny,
> > >> because the
> > >> motives of development are of phylotenetic, as well as
> > >> ontogenetic and
> > >> cultural
> > >> historical origin.
> > >>
> > >> Joe. In that same book fr, 1978 there was also Vygotsky's article
> > >> on play!
> > >> I think you are absolutely right about the educationalist bias,
> > >> but Vygotsky
> > >> was, you
> > >> will excuse the expression, a tad educationalist biased himself, in
> > >> practice. Part of the
> > >> attractiveness of Yrjo's ideas and those of others like yourself
> > >> who have
> > >> worked in the
> > >> workplace (where that workspace was not a faculty member's
> > >> office!) is that
> > >> it makes
> > >> clear the lifespan potential of the theory. It is not by accident
> > >> that so
> > >> many members of
> > >> xmca are interested in play, so that domain is now a part of the
> > >> discourse
> > >> too.
> > >>
> > >> Gotta give ourselves time to develop, so to speak.
> > >> mike
> > >>
> > >> \
> > >> On 1/3/07, JAG <joe.glick@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > Happy New Year to all:
> > >> >
> > >> > I've begun to think about the ZPD as having been too much
> > >> defined in
> > >> > educational terms - as "movement" from here to there
> > >> (intellectually).
> > >> > I think that the essential feature of the ZPD could/should be the
> > >> > "dialogicality" of it. From a dialogical perspective it is not one
> > >> > person moving another to a place where they were not, but rather an
> > >> > engagement between two people - both of whom must be affected by
> > >> that
> > >> > engagement. I think that the original Doise and Mugny studies
> > >> pointed
> > >> > in that direction.
> > >> >
> > >> > Perhaps I am speaking too much from a U,S. perspective but the way
> > >> > that Vygotsky was "reintroduced" in 1978 in "Mind in Society"
> > >> shifted
> > >> > a great deal of focus on to ZPD as education. It was only later, in
> > >> > 1985 when Wertsch began to introduce the dialogical notion of
> > >> the ZPD
> > >> > (seconded, interestingly in the introduction to "Vygotsky: The
> > >> Social
> > >> > Formation of Mind" by Zinchenko and Davydov) who seemed to
> > >> resisting
> > >> > the shift of the interpretation of Vygotsky in the direction of
> > >> > Activity Theory - with not enough Bakhtin - too much object related
> > >> > action and not enough consciousness. Of course, that was 1985 when
> > >> > consciousness could more comfortably take its place along with
> > >> > activity.
> > >> >
> > >> > >From a dialogical view of the ZPD the question of "who benefits"
> > >> > shifts to other questions such as "What are the conditions of
> > >> > participation, either focal or peripheral?" "What does it mean
> > >> to have
> > >> > a dialogic encounter - especially when the institutional
> > >> framework is
> > >> > (too often) seen as education of the unknowing by those who know
> > >> - or
> > >> > think they do." In sum the issue might be framed as "how do you
> > >> create
> > >> > a dialogical space in places where everything is working against
> > >> it."
> > >> >
> > >> > Perhaps it requires both the wonderful wine and some of that
> > >> wonderful
> > >> > cheese.
> > >> >
> > >> > Joe Glick
> > >> >
> > >> > On 1/3/07, Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont
> > >> > <Anne-Nelly.Perret-Clermont@unine.ch> wrote:
> > >> > > Dear All,
> > >> > > I am a member of the (numerous!) red dots along the Alpine
> > >> lakes and
> > >> > > Rhein Walley (I suppose, but I am not sure because this map is
> > >> not as
> > >> > > precise as the satellite maps. If it were you might discover
> > >> that the
> > >> > > red color is due to the good red wine of our local vinyards in
> > >> the area,
> > >> > > I suppose).
> > >> > > I enjoy the discussions but very seldom manage to pop in as
> > >> they go very
> > >> > > fast and my administrative duties seem to slow me down
> > >> terribly. I would
> > >> > > enjoy coming back on the effects of peer interactions and the
> > >> learning
> > >> > > that can occur also with less advanced peers, as already
> > >> described in
> > >> > > the late '70. It raises a lot of questions about the ZPD: why
> > >> would the
> > >> > > development follow a predictable line? For psychological
> > >> (Piaget would
> > >> > > say for logical) reasons? Or for cultural reasons? If the
> > >> direction of
> > >> > > the line of development is largely given culturally then the
> > >> credibility
> > >> > > of peers in different cultural contexts might be quite
> > >> different . In
> > >> > > could be the social milieu at large, but also the micro
> > >> context created
> > >> > > by gender when the interacting peers are same sex or note (as
> > >> Charis
> > >> > > Psaltis's beautiful dissertation in Cambridge has shown).
> > >> > > Is development following a line...is another questions. What
> > >> is/are the
> > >> > > relevant dimension(s) on which we project it to see line(s)?
> > >> How does
> > >> > > the adult who reaches in the ZPD of the subject know that he
> > >> is bringing
> > >> > > the subject "next step" (on the line)?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I'd like to hear you Aleksandar tell us more on how to map human
> > >> > > cultural tools. Including those tools can make life livable in
> > >> difficult
> > >> > > situations. And what do they have to do with devlopment.
> > >> > > Best greetings,
> > >> > > Anne-Nelly
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Prof. Anne-Nelly Perret-Clermont
> > >> > > Institut Psychologie et Education
> > >> > > Facult� des Lettres et Sciences humaines
> > >> > > Universit� de Neuch�tel
> > >> > > Espace L. Agassiz 1 CH 2000 Neuch�tel (Switzerland)
> > >> > > tel.:+41 32 718 18 56 fax: +41 32 718 18 51
> > >> > > email: anne-nelly.perret-clermont@unine.ch
> > >> > > http://www.unine.ch/psy
> > >> > > http://members.unine.ch/anne-nelly.perret-clermont/
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Aleksandar Baucal wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > Dear all,
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Happy New Year (for us who belong to ? (sub)world it is
> > >> 2007, what
> > >> > > > year is for other existing (sub)worlds?).
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > After some drinks I have a crazy idea. If it was possible to
> > >> map human
> > >> > > > genom with 3 bil. units, why it iwould not be possible to
> > >> map human
> > >> > > > cultural tools ...ehh...could you imagine trill of such
> > >> project :)
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Anyway, I wish you happy and cheerful New Dialogical Year
> > >> whatever
> > >> > > > number it is on your calendar :)
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Warmest greeting from small red dot from Belgrade
> > >> > > > Aleksandar Baucal
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Cathrene Connery wrote:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >> Greetings colleagues,
> > >> > > >> Just a quick hello from Central Washington University in
> > >> Ellensburg,
> > >> > > >> Washington. I'm not sure if I'm a dot on the map yet, but
> > >> thought
> > >> > I'd
> > >> > > >> introduce myself. Thanks to Ana, I started receiving xmca e-
> > >> mails
> > >> > about
> > >> > > >> a month ago. It has been refreshing to read everyone's
> > >> dialouge. A
> > >> > > >> powerhouse of energy collectively represents the members of
> > >> this
> > >> > > >> listserve!
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >> Just a little about myself......I fell in love with
> > >> Vygotsky in '89
> > >> > when
> > >> > > >> reading Thought and Language at Illinois while pursuing my
> > >> first
> > >> > > >> Master's degree. This past May, I graduated from the
> > >> University of
> > >> > New
> > >> > > >> Mexico with a doctorate in Language, Literacy, and
> > >> Sociocultural
> > >> > Studies
> > >> > > >> focusing on Bilingual / TESL Education. It was an honor to
> > >> have Vera
> > >> > > >> John-Steiner chair my committee. Emergent biliteracy,
> > >> multi-modal
> > >> > > >> meaningmaking, and teacher education reform on behalf of
> > >> culturally
> > >> > and
> > >> > > >> linguistically diverse children remain my great interests.
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >> My best wishes to you and your families for the upcoming
> > >> year. May
> > >> > you
> > >> > > >> experience peace, joy, and good health.
> > >> > > >> Todo lo mejor (All the best),
> > >> > > >> Cathrene
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >> M. Cathrene Connery, Ph.D.
> > >> > > >> Assistant Professor of Bilingual & TESL Education Central
> > >> Washington
> > >> > > >> University
> > >> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> > > >> xmca mailing list
> > >> > > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> > > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > _______________________________________________
> > >> > > > xmca mailing list
> > >> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >> > >
> > >> > > _______________________________________________
> > >> > > xmca mailing list
> > >> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >> > >
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > xmca mailing list
> > >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >> >
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> xmca mailing list
> > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> >
> > David Preiss, Ph.D.
> > Profesor Auxiliar / Assistant Professor
> >
> > Pontificia Universidad Catolica de Chile
> > Escuela de Psicolog�a
> > Av Vicu�a Mackenna 4860
> > Macul, Santiago
> > Chile
> >
> > Fono: 3544605
> > Fax: 3544844
> > e-mail: davidpreiss@uc.cl
> > web personal: http://web.mac.com/ddpreiss/
> > web institucional: http://www.uc.cl/psicologia
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
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