Dear Mike and all,
if I understood Paul Dillon right he sees Paolo Freire's work as an
example of versions of adressing ZPD and emphasis the importance of
including the historical dimension (of larger systems) in analyses. I
agree with Paul concerning the importance of the historical dimension
and the work of Iljenkov in this context. However, I see the problem of
getting data about the historic-genetic development of more extensive
systems (enough to risk an interpretation of an hypothetical zoped). I
do not mean to argue in favor of postivism (or psychological laboratory
exeperiments or something similar). But I do think that an
historical-genetic analysis on the cultural historical level has to be
based on sufficicent (if possible historical and empirical) data.
What "sufficient" means depends quite a lot on the object of reserach
and the systems related to the object of reserach.
I see a danger if one bases conclusions about hypothetical zopeds not
enough on empirical and historical data: The german critical
psychologists (such as Klaus Holzkamp) who discussed long term
historic-genetic analyses in their studies were often accused of being
"ideological". I find the tradition of Holzkamp very intersting and
disagree with quite a lot of these critics, but I see the problem that
Holzkamp and his colleagues work were partly not enough based on
(empirical and historical) data and therefore opened the door for such
critics.
I think the Finns found a way to base conclusions about activity systems
on empirical and historical data. Their work might be a very useful
basis for rethinking the analysis of the historic-genetic development
of more extensive systems and developments (enough to risk an
interpretation of an hypothetical zoped).
Regards
Zlatko
Mike Cole schrieb:
> Zlatko:
>
> Your wrote: it might be fruitful, to discuss hyothetical zopeds of
> systems (such as activity systems or even systems of more extensive
> scope) that are grounded in emprirical or historical data.
>
> I agree that analysis at the level of activity systems is one way to
> go. This is, in effect, what I have done with my work on building 5th
> Dimensions and studying their change over time. This is what Yrjo does
> in a different way with use of Change Lab. But this is NOT
> on the scale being discussed by Paul, for example.
>
> mike
>
> On 12/13/06, Bodrozic <bodrozic@web.de <mailto:bodrozic@web.de>> wrote:
>
> I think that it depends quite a lot on your object of research,
> whether
> searching for a - hypthetical - Zoped on the Cultural Historical level
> is useful or not.
> While "ideological setting" such as the "proletariat is per
> definitionem
> the subject of new kind of practice" might be less useful, it might be
> fruitful, to discuss
> hyothetical zopeds of systems (such as activity systems or even
> systems
> of more extensive scope) that are grounded in emprirical or
> historical data.
> In the the time of the IT revolution new models of different
> activities
> are emerging, and I think the Zoped concept might be appropriate to
> adress them.
>
> Kind regards
> Zlatko Bodrozic
>
>
>
>
> Mike Cole schrieb:
>
> > Yes, this seems a plausible way to go. But it is difficult to
> think of
> > the
> > dominator
> > as "more developed" is so many ways (ditto adult/child was an
> issue I was
> > trying to
> > raise, but lets assume that parents know best if you like for
> purposes of
> > discussion)
> > that I recoil often at the thought.
> >
> > In our 1984 article on zopeds peg griffin and I pointed out,
> echoing
> > Carol
> > Emerson
> > writing about Bakhtin and LSV, that a zoped can be usefully be
> thought
> > of as
> > a conversation with the future and that as such, the adult current
> > level of
> > development does not provide an exhaustive teleology/end point
> of the
> > child's development.
> >
> > I see no easy resolutions here (how could there be, this group
> cannot
> > agree
> > that any
> > putative example of a zoped is in fact an example!), but the
> issues are
> > worth thinking,
> > re-thinking, re-re-thinking, etc.
> > mike
> >
> > On 12/11/06, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Mike, surely the essential thing about ontogenetic development
> which
> >> differs from historical development is that in ontogeny the
> subject is
> >> growing into an existing dominant culture and activity system,
> >> whereas in
> >> history (and evolution) the subject is pulling itself up by its
> >> bootstraps,
> >> except for various kinds of cultural domination, colonialism, etc.
> >> where a
> >> dominant subject forces the development of a dominated subject.
> So if we
> >> see ZPD as essentially existing in the relation between more
> and less
> >> capable subjects, then the only way we can see it in history is via
> >> domination. Some would argue that domination of one subject by
> >> another is
> >> in fact the norm, not the exception, in history: war, conquest,
> >> colonisation, enslavement, take-over, .... This is what Hegel's
> famed
> >> master-slave dialectic is about, the same dialectic which deals
> with the
> >> emergence of rational thought (theory and practice, scientific
> concepts,
> >> etc.) from non-literate life (for want of a better word). Hegel's
> >> dialectic of the relations between dominant and dominated
> subjects is
> >> never
> >> (so far as I know) conceived as that of learner-teacher ... an
> >> interesting
> >> thought though ...
> >>
> >> Andy
> >>
> >> At 01:19 PM 10/12/2006 -0800, you wrote:
> >> >A while back Paul inquired into the issue of zone's of proximal
> >> development
> >> >at the cultural
> >> >historical level of analysis. I pointed to Yrjo's work in
> Learning by
> >> >Expanding, but Paul has
> >> >in mind far wider swatches of time.
> >> >
> >> >In Yrjo's case, in some sense, a generalization of the method
> of dual
> >> >stimulation implemented
> >> >as cultural practices by a self-conscious group is the
> mechanism for
> >> >"changing oneself by
> >> >changing one's history" (where self may refer to Huck Finn or the
> >> Finnish
> >> 7
> >> >brothers or a group
> >> >of workers in some Finnish industry). I like the work a lot,
> but I
> >> agree
> >> >with Paul that it does not
> >> >answer to the question of Zopeds at the cultural historical level
> >> >adequately.
> >> >
> >> >The problem, for me, is that I am unsure that it is
> appropriate to seek
> >> any
> >> >such mechanism of
> >> >cultural historical change. A zoped, in my ( ipso facto flawed,
> >> mistaken,
> >> >and misguided understanding!)
> >> >is constituted in joint of activity of people with different
> resources
> >> >(knowledge, experience, courage.......)
> >> >for accomplishing a culturally valued task. In Vygotsky's
> rendering,
> >> >provided in the context of
> >> >psychological testing and pedagogical practice, the persona
> involved
> >> are
> >> a
> >> >more and less capable
> >> >person, sometimes referred to as more and less capable peers.
> >> >
> >> >The difficulty at the cultural-historical level that bothers
> me is that
> >> it
> >> >is even more difficult than in the
> >> >ontogenetic case to figure out who the more capable
> person/social group
> >> >might be. For sure versions
> >> >of this idea that invoke some version of the "vanguard of the
> >> proletariat"
> >> >and associate notions of
> >> >false consciousness I experienced during the 20th century, did not
> >> impress
> >> >me as a useful
> >> >means for the development of humanity.
> >> >
> >> >I should add that I also believe that uncritical evaluations
> of who the
> >> more
> >> >capable person is in the
> >> >ontogentic literature ought to be viewed sceptically, or at least
> >> bracketed.
> >> >In some cases (luria
> >> >seeking to help Zasetsky recover his blown-away intellectual
> >> functions so
> >> >that he can read and write
> >> >and live in his home town) the amazing zopeds Luria created seem
> >> >unproblematic ethically in terms
> >> >of almost anyone's view. In a lot of other cases I am less
> sure. Yrjo's
> >> >critique of unproblematic
> >> >"vertical developmentalism" in his "breaking away" article
> >> highlights the
> >> >dark side of educator's
> >> >good intentions even when they are, in some sense good, never
> mind the
> >> cases
> >> >in which psychopaths
> >> >are in charge of the classroom or the clinic.
> >> >
> >> >But the question at the cultural-historical level remains in
> several
> >> >versions.
> >> >
> >> >I am assuming that at the phylogenetic level no one wishes to
> claim
> >> that
> >> >there is any question of
> >> >the kind of teleology involved in issues surrounding the notion of
> >> zoped
> >> >within a CHAT perspective,
> >> >but this view is clearly in a tiny minority when viewed within
> the
> >> >contemporary ideological landscape.
> >> >mike
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >xmca mailing list
> >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >> >http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> >> Andy Blunden : http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> tel (H) +61 3 9380 9435,
> >> AIM
> >> identity: AndyMarxists mobile 0409 358 651
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
>
>
>
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