Re: [xmca] Zopeds and more competent peers

From: Shirley Franklin (s.franklin@dsl.pipex.com)
Date: Mon Dec 11 2006 - 10:10:59 PST


Let me broadly describe a context to explain my case for deeper
learning of the more competent peer.

Less competent (L) does not understand the concepts on which the
lesson is based, because the teacher has used concepts to the class,
which s/he had assumed were familiar to all but weren't. More
competent (M) then talks through the explanation more familiar
concepts, building the picture for L. In the process M's
understanding of the new concept deepens as s/he searches for an
appropriate explanation. using simpler concepts.

This process also embeds the new concept more firmly for both because
of the direct interaction.

Shirley
On 11 Dec 2006, at 17:54, deborah downing-wilson wrote:

> hmmm. it seems to me that in teaching or demonstrating a skill we
> perform
> the skill in as close to the ideal form as we are able, and as this
> teaching
> episode is also an incidence of practice we can assume that the
> teacher's
> skill level improves during the interaction. I'm not sure about
> the deeper
> understanding, one can hope for the compassion and empathy,
> frustration and
> impatience certainly.
>
> On 12/11/06, Ana Guenthner <anaguenthner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> In response to Shirley and Deb's thoughts, to assume that the more
>> dominant
>> learner in a group zpd tends to lead to deeper understanding would be
>> overrating the learner. I tend to wonder if deeper understanding
>> would be
>> in the learners reflections towards compassion and empathy rather
>> than
>> content.
>>
>> The notion of assuming that the more capable learner performs "at
>> a level
>> above what they are capable of outside the ZPD " as a general
>> statement
>> somehow does not sit well with my thinking. Considering the cultural
>> historical aspect of a teacher not knowing the danger of
>> simplifying and
>> deciding on the individual/group more capable and least capable
>> based on
>> an
>> inferior design of assessments.
>>
>> The hot topic seems to be in the design of assessments at the
>> moment. Any
>> views out there on the cultural historical impact on zoped and
>> assessments?
>> Would appreciate a lead.
>>
>>
>> >
>> > > On 12/11/06, Shirley Franklin <s.franklin@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>> > >> You are so right, Deb.
>> > >>
>> > >> It is a very positive argument for mixed ability teaching and
>> learning.
>> > >>
>> > >> My kids were taught is mixed ability classrooms (sadly now in
>> the
>> > >> decline in the UK) and benefited enormously by helping their
>> weaker
>> > >> mates . The act of simplification must involve more complex
>> thinking.
>> > >> As a special needs teacher I know how challenging
>> simplification is!
>> > >> I have always thought this had led these 'more competent
>> peers' to
>> > >> greater , deeper understandings. It is something we frequently
>> > >> discuss in my teaching seminars.
>> > >>
>> > >> Like Deb, I would love some other references to this.
>> > >> Shirley
>> > >>
>> > >> On 10 Dec 2006, at 23:55, deborah downing-wilson wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>> A question that comes to me occasionally - but never when
>> I'm near
>> > >>> someone
>> > >>> to ask-
>> > >>>
>> > >>> It seems to me that the "more capable" member of the ZPD, by
>> nature
>> > >>> of the
>> > >>> interaction also performs at a level above what they are
>> capable of
>> > >>> outside
>> > >>> the ZPD -
>> > >>>
>> > >>> deb
>> >
>> > >>> On 12/10/06, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > .
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> The difficulty at the cultural-historical level that
>> bothers me is
>> > >>>> that it is even more difficult than in the
>> > >>>> ontogenetic case to figure out who the more capable person/
>> social
>> > >>>> group
>> > >>>> might be.
>> >
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>
>
>
> --
> Deborah Downing-Wilson
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