Re: [xmca] Method/Methodology

From: Victor (victor@kfar-hanassi.org.il)
Date: Tue Aug 23 2005 - 02:25:13 PDT


----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor" <victor@kfar-hanassi.org.il>
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 19:02
Subject: Re: [xmca] Method/Methodology

Andy, not all materialist theory is critical. Both Lenin and EVI, the
latter much more thoroughly than the former, demonstrate that historical
materialism is a positive natural science (See chapters 8 and 9 of
Dialectical Logic and all of chapters 1 and 2 of Dialectics of the
Abstract...).

Alex, I would take issue with you on the assertion that EVI was a consistent
spinozist (03.03) PM 21/08/2005. Spinoza, for all the sophistication of his
particular form of materialism, it still remains metaphysical rather than
practical, a point of view sharply and well critiqued by EVI.

Victor

Addendum:
Historical Materialism as a positive science of the development of human
social life can as such produce a methodology, the historical dialectics of
practice.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Blunden" <ablunden@mira.net>
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 2:37
Subject: RE: [xmca] Method/Methodology

   I'm not entirely convinced of your argument Sasha, but I do sympathise
   with your basic thesis. People like Tony Smith (The Logic of Marx's
   Capital, Replies to Hegelian Criticisms) who promote the search for a
   "method" in Marx repulse me. I have Bert Ollman's "Dance of the
   dialectic. Steps in Marx's Method" on my bookshelf, and haven't got to
   open it yet. Do you agree, Sasha, that a critical attitude towards
   claims of a "Marxist methodology" is also appropriate? Can critique be
   reduced to a "method"?
   comradely,
   Andy
   At 01:49 AM 22/08/2005 +0400, you wrote:

     Hi, Andy
     Indeed, "Discourse on Method" can be roughly translated as
     "Methodology" but
     we can do it just because that is a text of Descartes, because
     according his
     philosophy the method of thinking or the law of thinking reflects
     the
     causality of "mental substance" as it is. This method and this law
     exists
     independently from laws of objective or "extensive" world or
     "substance".
     That's why the Descartes method can be comprehended as so called
     "methodology". (But still and all I think that this interpretation
     will be
     too rough even for Descartes.)
     But when we are translating the texts of Spinoza, Hegel or Marx
     applying the
     term "methodology" will be a gross error.
     As for "the methodology of medicine" we have to pay attention not
     only on
     date, but at the subject of term as well. Even now a medicine
     remains more
     an art of curing than theoretically well-founded discipline. And
     what can we
     expect from medicine 1800? It's useless to examine this
     "methodology" with
     hope to find the slightest signs of dialectic or theoretical
     reflection in
     it. A compendium of uncoordinated, theoretically untied empirical
     methods -
     that is this "methodology", and usually all other methodologies as
     well. (I
     advisedly emphasize the situation. I know that the antique medicine
     was very
     close to philosophy - good dialectical philosophy. But the medicine
     of XIX -
     XX centuries renounce succession as heir from antique culture in
     favor of
     utmost empiricism.)
     And finally I want to underline the characteristic detail that
     according to
     OED the first language where it was used was English - the language
     (the
     culture) basicly connected with tradition of classical
     empiricism of
     J.Locke.
     As for mentioned by Wolff-Michael German scholars who "love to use
     expressions like "methodisch-methodologisch" I can suppose that
     this is
     connected with Neo-Kantianist tendencies.
     Cheers,
     Sasha
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [[1]mailto:xm
ca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of Andy Blunden
> Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 3:32 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: RE: [xmca] Method/Methodology
>
>
> But surely Sasha, isn't "Discourse on Method" roughly
     translated as
> "Methodology"? I agree with your conclusion that the
     study of any
> particular science is inseparable from the study of the method
     of that
> science, but I do question the recentness of the
     concept of
> "methodology." According to the OED, the word was first
     used in
> English in 1800 as "the methodology of medicine".
> Andy
> At 03:09 PM 21/08/2005 +0400, you wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> IMHO the problem of meaning of so called
     "methodology" is a
> little bit more
> complicated than it can be estimated from the first sight.
     First of
> all this
> term is rather new. It was brought into fashion in the
     beginning of
> the last
> century. Neither Hegel nor Marx had ever used it.
     Certainly
> Ilyenkov knew
> this term but never used it either.
> In the strict sense this term derives to those
     philosophical
> schools which
> suppose the thinking and the objective reality as
     something
> initially
> distinct and independent of each other.
> On the contrary according the Spinozian point of view there
     is no
> methodology without theory. In other words a method
     can be
> comprehended only
> as a reflection of theory, of "idea". One can not
     discuss
> method in
> abstracto. (For example a soviet philosopher
     G.P.Schedrovitsky
> pretended to
> invent a universal abstract methodology applicable in any
     sphere.)
> We can read at Spinoza's "On the Improvement
     of the
> Understanding"
> [2]http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/texts/spinoza/Imp
rovement.ht
> ml
> ".method is nothing else than reflective knowledge, or
     the idea
> of an idea;
> and that as there can be no idea of an idea --- unless
     an idea
> exists
> previously, --- there can be no method without a
     pre-existent
> idea."
> That is why Ilyenkov - a consistent spinozist - never used
     term
> "methodology" as well as "epistemology". From his
     POV the
> only possible
> "methodology", "epistemology" or "the
     theory of
> knowledge" is di=lectic. But
> real, genuine dialectic is impossible in abstraction
     from real,
> concrete
> theoretical or practical process.
> We can find a fragment in Ilyenkov's "Dialectical
     logic"
> "...Marx, Engels,
> and Lenin established that it was dialectics, and only
     dialectics,
> that was
> the real logic in accordance with which modern
     thought made
> progress. It was
> it, too, that operated at the 'growing points' of
     modern
> science, although
> the representatives of science were not wholly conscious
     of the
> fact. That
> was why logic as a science coincided (merged) not
     only with
> dialectics but
> also with the theory of knowledge of materialism. 'In
     Capital
> Marx applied
> to a single science logic, dialectics, and the theory of
     knowledge
> of
> materialism (three words are not needed; it is one and
     the same
> thing),' is
> how Lenin categorically formulated it."
> [3]http://www.marxists.org/archive/ilyenkov/works/essays/es
say9.htm
> As for Vygotsky who used this term the situation is
     much more
> complex.
> Indeed we can find the terms "methodology" as
     well as
> "dialectic" in
> Vygotsky's theoretical luggage. But the division of his
     theoretic
> heritage
> into theoretic and methodologic halves is extremely
     unproductive.
> He has
> advanced in theory as far as in methodology, and vice versa.
>
> Cheers,
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Alexander V. Surmava, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor
> The Russian State University for the Humanities
> The Vygotsky Institute of Psychology
> Liapidevskogo str. 8-2-274
> 125581 Moscow, Russia
> tel./fax: 7 (095) 455-88-24
> mob.: 7 903 579-19-20
> e-mail: monada@netvox.ru
> = monada@voxnet.ru
> ICQ: 84411775
> [1]http://www.voxnet.ru/~monada
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
     [[2]mailto:xm
> ca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> > Behalf Of Carol Macdonald
> > Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 2:34 PM
> > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity'
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] Method/Methodology
> >
> > Hi,
> > I don't have a reference except for Wertsch (1979)
     ACTIVITY
> THEORY but
> > we make a very strong distinction at our university,
     and
> regard
> > methodology as the study of method, or metatheory, and
     method as
> the
> > specific method adopted in a particular study.
     Margaret
> Donaldson, who
> > was my Ph D supervisor two decades ago explained the
     distinction
> to me,
> > and so I wrote about method in my little studies I did
     then.
> > Carol
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> [[3][4]mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > On Behalf Of Ares, Nancy
> > Sent: 17 August 2005 07:34 PM
> > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity'
> > Cc: Franz Breuer
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] Method/Methodology
> >
> > although the chapter below is not particular to
     cultural
> historical
> > theory,
> > Harding presents a very clear distinction between method
     and
> > methodology,
> > making a strong case for attending to methodology in terms
     of
> > epistemology;
> > philosophies of knowledge, knowers, and knowing; and
     theory to
> > distinguish
> > research paradigms, rather than simply to methods that are
> > characteristic.
> >
> >
> > Harding, S. (1987). Introduction: Is there a feminist
     method?
> In
> > S.
> > Harding (Ed.), Feminism and methodology: Social science
     issues
> (pp.
> > 1-13).
> > Bloomington, IN: Indiana University Press.
> >
> > Nancy Ares
> > Assistant Professor
> > Teaching & Curriculum
> > The Warner Graduate School of Education
> > and Human Development
> > University of Rochester
> > P.O. Box 270425
> > Rochester, NY 14627
> > 585-273-5957
> > fax 585-473-7598
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From: Wolff-Michael Roth
> > > Reply To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:23 PM
> > > To: mcole@weber.ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture,
     Activity
> > > Cc: Franz Breuer
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Method/Methodology
> > >
> > > Is there anyone from Germany on this list? I know
     German
> scholar love
> > > to use expressions like "methodisch-methodologisch".
     I will
> copy this
> > > message to a friend in Germany, Franz Breuer, a
     qualitatively
> working
> > > psychologist and co-editor of the online journal FQS:
     FORUM
> > QUALITATIVE
> > > SOZIALFORSCHUNG / FORUM QUALITATIVE SOCIAL RESEARCH.
> > >
> > > In my book on research method that is going to be
     published
> this or
> > > next week, I point out that methodology is something
     like the
> science
> > > of method, as distinct to the particular method you
     use in
> enacting a
> > > project. More so, I think it is important to practice
     method
> for
> > > graduate students rather than merely to read
     methodologies,
> treatises
> > > that conceptualize different ways of doing research. . .
> > >
> > > I think there is a greater penchant in Germany, for
     example, to
> do
> > real
> > > methodological work, as you can find it in Stegmüller
     (1974),
> who
> > > distinguishes different ways of conducting historical
     research,
> etc.
> > >
> > > Stegmüller, W. (1974). Probleme und
     Resultate der
> Wissenschaftstheorie
> >
> > > und Analytischen Philosophie, Band I:
     Wissenschaftliche
> Erklärung und
> > > Begründung[Problems and results of a theory of
     science and
> analytical
> > > philosophy, volume 1: Scientific explication and
     explanation].
> Berlin:
> >
> > > Springer-Verlag.
> > >
> > >
> > > Perhaps we can get Franz to assist us on this list?
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > >
> > > On 17-Aug-05, at 10:16 AM, Mike Cole wrote:
> > >
> > > > A visiting colleague has rasied the issue of the
     distinction
> between
> >
> > > > method
> > > > and methodology in a cultural-historical
> > > > perspective. I do not know offhand of any good
     written
> discussions
> > of
> > > > this
> > > > distinction although I think it is important.
> > > > Can anyone help?
> > > > mike
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > [4]http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
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> Andy Blunden=[9]http://home.mira.net/~andy/index.htm (61)
     3 9380
> 9435
>
> References
>
> 1. 3D"[5]http://w=w.voxnet.ru/~monada" 2. 3D"mailto:xmca-
> bounces@weber.ucsd.edu"
> 3. 3D"[6]ma=lto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu" 4.
> 3D"[7]http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca" 5.
> 3D"[8]http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca" 6.
> 3D"[9]http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca" 7.
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> 9.
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    Andy Blunden=[15]http://home.mira.net/~andy/index.htm (61) 3 9380
9435

References

   1. 3D"mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu"
   2. 3D"http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/texts/spinoza/Improvement.ht
3. 3D"http://www.marxists.org/archive/ilyenkov/works/essays/essay9.htm" 4.
3D"mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu" 5. 3D"http://www.voxnet.ru/~monada"
   6. 3D"mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu"
   7. 3D"http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca"
   8. 3D"http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca"
   9. 3D"http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca"
  10. 3D"http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca"
  11. 3D"http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca" 12.
3D"http://home.mira.net/~andy/index.htm" 13.
3D"http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca" 14.
3D"http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca"
  15.
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