Carl, I think the message by Diane answers the question as to whether one
can dissect the issue you are suggesting to discuss from the broader context
of discussing not only the type of society L and V and others were living
and working in, but oddly enough, the type of society we are now living and
working in (thank you, Paul, for bringing this into discussion, of course I
do not mind, far from this). From my perspective, one cannot take Carl's
questions in isolation from the broader context, even if one tries hard to
avoid these questions. And by the way, it would be in such a contradiction
with the very spirit of CHAT, don't you think?
Mike, I can see what you are talking about, but I actually think we were too
slow (at least I mean myself) in trying to counteract some of the very
stereotypical views on V-L-L.
Before going any further, it would be important for me to know whether the
following books are available in English (I really do not know), and more
generally, whether they are familiar to many on the xmca:
1. by Vygotsky's daughter, Gita L'vovna Vygodskaja (together with Tamara
Lifanova), about Vygotsky;
2. by Luria's daughter, Elena Alexandrovna Luria, "My father";
3. by AA Leont'ev on Vygotsky's biography;
4. books by M.G. Yaroshevskij, including "L.Vygotsky: In search of the new
psychology".
All of these books have been published recently, i.e. after what some refer
to as "the fall of the Soviet Union" (not the best expression, by the way,
as it does not convey the meaning of events that took place in 1991;
generally speaking, the difficulty in today's discourse to find terms that
would adequately name these events, is quite indicative of the fact that the
history has not yet been written...). Hence no reasons to suspect these
books in being tainted by censorship; they are, indeed, a great source of
information, and they all generally paint a very multidimensional picture
that is far from black-and-white stereotypes.
On a more specific level: Carl, two years is indeed a long time... can you
tell which years exactly were these two? I am asking because I suspect
things are changing in China very rapidly. Although I know very litlle about
this country and I certainly know I could not generlaize from my knowledge
of Russia to infer anything about China.
Anna Stetsenko
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Ratner [mailto:cr2@humboldt1.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 12:17 PM
To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
Subject: Re: sl0w sloW SLOW!
IN response to Diane's and Paul's comments, I'd like to say that I was
primarily trying to raise certain weaknesses in the Soviet activity
theorists' work -- that they don't sufficiently relate psych. to concrete
social activities/conditions/systems/dynamics. I merely offered an opinion
about a possible cause of this weakness -- political persecution. I really
don't know if that is the reason. I think the main point is more impt. --
namely how to overcome the weakness and relate psych. to concrete social
activities. This is the direction that I am trying to take in order to
develop activity theory.
I think that we must carefully analyze the social organization of social
activities such as education, economics/work, politics, medicine, religion,
family and ascertain how their features are embodied in higher psych.
processes. This would illuminate psych., and it would contribute insight
into social activities which would be politically useful for humanizing
social life. Therefore I think that a genuine cultural psych. based on a.t.
would be very political while also being scientific. I'm astonished at how
little attention psychologists of all persuasions devote to the relation of
psych. phenomena to concrete social activities. In one way or another, the
concreteness of these activities is uncannily "disappeared" and psych.
appears unrelated to them. This occurs in totalitarian governments and also
"free-market" societies (no dichotomized thinking here, Anna).
Carl
-- Carl Ratner, Ph.D. cr2@humboldt1.com http://www.humboldt1.com/~cr2P.O.B. 1294 Trinidad, CA 95570 USA
> From: dhodges@ceo.cudenver.edu (Diane Hodges) > Reply-To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 08:09:13 -0700 > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > Subject: Re: sl0w sloW SLOW! > Resent-From: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 08:07:41 -0800 (PST) > > mike asks > Please, lets go very slow and circumstpectly with personal impressions. > They > are SO open to misinterpretation. For example, Carl wrote: > And I understood that Luria was > bitter about the CP and felt so politically threatened that he turned from > sociohistorical studies to medical studies to avoid any political > persecution. Is all that wrong? > > It would take the better part of a book to answer your question Carl. And > it would take ditto to clear up/confront/contest other stories about what > who felt when under what circumstances. > > actually, i've been discussing, elsewhere, Frederic Jameson's (1981) _The > political unconscious: Narrative as a socially symbolic act_ , > which asserts that when are reading texts, > we must account for historical frames that are part of the writing, > and that these histories are what produce the text, as an effect of its > history - > > i think Anna and Carl's thoughts on these histories as limitations are > essential for placing > historical writing in a context of political relations - > that there are _always_ systems of oppressions and dominance at work in > writing, what does not get written, what is assumed, displaced, denied, > or accepted, - these can't be *dismissed* as the effects of the writing - > these ARE the effects of the writing... > really, we can't legitimately be reading for interpretations, or seeking > the "meaning" - > but we can be active in recognizing the effects, > the text itself as a socially symbolic act - not written in lieu of its > historical constraints, > but rather as an activity within its historical constraints. > once we disregard the issues that Anna and Carl raise, i think we do a > disservice to the historical aspect of cultural-historical activity - > don't you think? > diane > > ********************************************************************** > :point where everything listens. > and i slow down, learning how to > enter - implicate and unspoken (still) heart-of-the-world. > > (Daphne Marlatt, "Coming to you") > *********************************************************************** > > diane celia hodges > > university of british columbia, centre for the study of curriculum and > instruction > ==================== ==================== ======================= > university of colorado, denver, school of education > > Diane_Hodges@ceo.cudenver.edu > > > >
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