FW: Tutchev in English

From: Eugene Matusov (ematusov@udel.edu)
Date: Tue Mar 07 2000 - 09:35:42 PST


Hi Rachel and everybody--

I wonder how mainstream American adolescence (and family, and society)
changed around 50s that forced Erickson to invent the new term that become
so popular? What do you think?

Eugene

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rachel Heckert [mailto:heckertkrs@juno.com]
> Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2000 8:18 PM
> To: ematusov@UDel.Edu
> Subject: Re: Tutchev in English
>
>
> Hi Eugene and list,
>
> I think that you're right about "identity" being a new term. I remember
> that when I was young (oh, so many years ago) the term was just beginning
> to come into use, I think from Erikson, as in "identity crisis" - the
> idea was, an adolescent has no firm sense of self but must build one by
> differentiating him/herself from others, especially parents. (What have
> Americans got against parents?) Without an "identity" one feels lost
> and insecure, "existentialist" angst (which was also very big then). If
> you feel your "identity" getting unstuck, you have an "identity crisis"
> and go around distraught asking yourself, "who am I really?" (Which
> sounds a little like what the psychologists call depersonalization
> disorder :-) It's an "individualist" term as opposed to a "collectivist"
> type.
>
> Lichnost just comes from the word for "face" as in "unique quality of
> *this* individual." "Identity" and "identity crisis" started out as
> things that you only had if you were middle-class and college-educated.
> It proved you weren't an uneducated, unthinking clod. ;-)
>
> Rachel
>
> On Sun, 5 Mar 2000 18:53:48 -0500 "Eugene Matusov" <ematusov@udel.edu>
> writes:
> > Hi Tatiana and everybody--
> >
> > I struggle in translation of the Russian term "lichnost''" in
> > English and
> > the English term "identity" in Russian. I wonder if the problem is
> > that
> > these terms are in a deep conflict with each other. It can be
> > evident in the
> > following statements:
> >
> > English
> > "Assume your identity," "idenetity crisis," "identitity confusion,"
> > "his
> > identity is..."
> >
> > Russian
> > "Each lichnost' is a Universe," "unique lichnost,'" "he is
> > lichnost'!" "cult
> > lichnosti"
> >
> > The closest translation of the English term "identity" in Russian I
> > can
> > think of is "lichina" but it sounds too negative (almost like a
> > mask). The
> > closest translation of the Russian term "lischnost'" is the English
> > word
> > "personality" but it sounds too mechanical (as an assembly of
> > traits).
> >
> > I wonder if the difference between these terms reflect differences in
> > historical experiences of the communites. I wonder if the notion of
> > idenity
> > is a Western middle-class phenomenon emerging in 50s associated with
> > middle
> > class style of life (based on the ideology of having choices and
> > being in
> > control). I have read several studies from my friend Bill Penuel
> > where
> > African-American teenagers from poor neighborhood reject the notion
> > of
> > identity,
> >
> > …at YOUTHPOWER / they know me because I’m YOUTH/ I’m a YOUTH/
> > they want to get a YOUTH perspective/
> >
> > …the only reason I FELT they felt/ they knew ROBERT/ because Robert
> > was a
> > YOUTH/
> > they want to get a OBJECTIVE from a youth/
> >
> > that’s how they PUT me in that position/
> > that’s how they KNOW me/…
> > how do I say it/ you know/
> > um SIGNIFY with me whatever/ what HAVE you/
> >
> > but when IN the Hill/ it’s just like I’m ROBERT/
> > I'm not Robert from the HILL/
> > I'm not Robert from SANDY Ave/
> > I'm not Robert from the COMMUNITY Center/
> > I'm not Robert who's EIGHTEEN years old/
> > I'm ROBERT/ and that's how they KNOW me/
> >
> > The slogan written on a T-shirt worn by a young African American
> > woman: "The
> > identity I wear the best is my first and last identity: human being."
> >
> > These all sounds so Russian!
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > Eugene
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: sazonova [mailto:sazon@kursknet.ru]
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2000 11:25 PM
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > Subject: Re: Tutchev in English
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi, Rachel,
> > >
> > > Thank you very much for mentioning Antonio Damasio whose books
> > make really
> > > a very interesting reading. I also haven't read his last one, but
> > I read
> > > many refferences to it and they are very contrudictory. his
> > understanding
> > > of many things is close to mine and I'm looking forward to read
> > his new
> > > book.
> > > I don't think that Americans have no "dusha", but I agree that
> > they have a
> > > different "sense of self". And I think everybody has a peculiar
> > sence of
> > > self to some extend, only cultural differences make this
> > differencies much
> > > deeper.
> > > Anna Wierzbicka in her article gives a linguistic semantic
> > analisys of
> > > those notions and she refers much to literature and high poetry.
> > This is
> > > only one side of the moon. And the back side is what
> > psycholinguists would
> > > study as an individual meaning of the word/ here dusha will be
> > paralleled
> > > with character, personality and in some contexts will nave even
> > negative
> > > implications: in real life situations a man is supposed to have no
> > dusha
> > > when he is at work ( in the meaning that one should be deprived of
> > > emotions) and etc.
> > > Funny enough that Mike's wife calls Russian thongs she is
> > displeased with.
> > >
> > > Tatiana
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------
> > > Îò: Rachel Heckert <heckertkrs@juno.com>
> > > Êîìó: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > Òåìà: Re: Tutchev in English
> > > Äàòà: 2 ìàðòà 2000 ã. 6:32
> > >
> > > Tatiana,
> > >
> > > You are absolutely right about "dusha - soul" (Russian) and "mind"
> > > (English) not being the same thing. Anna Wierzbicka wrote a very
> > > revealing piece about how our ideas about "person" are socially
> > > constructed, and points out that the Anglo-American idea of "mind"
> > is not
> > > only peculiar to English-speakers, but is basically a development
> > of the
> > > last two centuries. (She also talks about French "ame" and German
> > "seele
> > > (mistranslation of which she says has created an inaccurate idea
> > of what
> > > Freud was really saying).
> > >
> > > She also quotes extensively the Russian immigrant poet
> > Tsvetayeva, and
> > > particularly relevant here: "There are things which cannot be
> > thought in
> > > another language." (Being bilingual/cultural myself, I can give
> > my own
> > > anecdotal evidence that this is true.)
> > >
> > > "The original article is in "American Anthropologist" vol. 91-1989
> > and
> > > she later expnanded it into a book chapter in "Semantics, Culture
> > and
> > > Cognition" (Oxford, 1992) which examines various concepts in
> > European
> > > languages, how they differ, and the hazards posed by translating
> > > directly.
> > >
> > > One of the less complimentary things I have heard about Americans
> > from
> > > Russian friends is the puzzled (and sometimes dismissive)
> > statement that
> > > "They have no dusha" - i.e. Americans have a very different "sense
> > of
> > > self" than other nationalities. Another interesting phenomenon -
> > to me,
> > > anyway - is the whole "the brain is a computer" business, which is
> > based
> > > on the idea that being human is a matter of ratiocination and
> > > logic-chopping, divorced from emotion and volition. Russian (and
> > classic
> > > Hebrew/Yiddish usage) has a separate term for this activity of the
> > human
> > > mind.
> > > An interesting take on this from a neuropsychologist is Antonio
> > Damasio's
> > > "Descartes' Error" which examines the hypothesis that emotion is
> > > necessary for even reasoning to function. (He just published
> > another
> > > book, which I haven't read yet, but I have it from him via e-mail
> > that
> > > it's an extension of the earlier one).
> > >
> > > Comments from Eugene, Tatiana, other Russian-speakers?
> > >
> > > Rachel Heckert
> > >
> > > BTW Will you guys please quit flaming each other? I'm just
> > catching up
> > > after several days away, and the last round of posts has left me
> > > wondering just what's gotten into everybody.
> > >
> > > On Wed, 1 Mar 2000 09:30:47 +0300 "sazonova" <sazon@kursknet.ru>
> > writes:
> > > > Mike, you are absolutly wright. And its not a coincidence.
> > > > In my translation I ment "soul' first of all and the word
> > "mind" was
> > > > introduced specially for xmca-readers.
> > > > And now I'm struggling with the translation of the expression
> > "body
> > > > - mind
> > > > problem" (I want to make a reveiw in my book) which somehow
> > > > corresponds to
> > > > what is known in Russian philosophical tradition as the problem
> > of
> > > > body and
> > > > soul. When I say "somehow correspods" because English word
> > "mind" is
> > > > not
> > > > the same as Russian word "soul". And I recall the XMCA
> > discussion on
> > > > the
> > > > differences between Westen and Easten tradition in science.
> > > > Tatiana
> > > >
> > > > ----------
> > > > > Îò: Mike Cole <mcole@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > > > Êîìó: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > Òåìà: Tutchev in English
> > > > > Äàòà: 1 ìàðòà 2000 ã. 3:37
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Look at the title of this talk! I had just written Eugene
> > about the
> > > > > problems of translation from russian-english where the word,
> > soul,
> > > > > is a fine example. And then this appeared on the screen!
> > > > > mike
> > > > >
> > > > > >GARY T. MARX
> > > > > >Emeritus Professor
> > > > > >Massachusetts Institute of Technology
> > > > > >"Windows into the Soul: Surveillance and Society
> > > > > >in an Age of High Technology"
> > > > >
> > > > > sure, its a coincidence.
> > > > > mike
> > > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________________________________________
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> > > ----------
> >
>
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