Hi Tatiana and everybody--
I struggle in translation of the Russian term "lichnost''" in English and
the English term "identity" in Russian. I wonder if the problem is that
these terms are in a deep conflict with each other. It can be evident in the
following statements:
English
"Assume your identity," "idenetity crisis," "identitity confusion," "his
identity is..."
Russian
"Each lichnost' is a Universe," "unique lichnost,'" "he is lichnost'!" "cult
lichnosti"
The closest translation of the English term "identity" in Russian I can
think of is "lichina" but it sounds too negative (almost like a mask). The
closest translation of the Russian term "lischnost'" is the English word
"personality" but it sounds too mechanical (as an assembly of traits).
I wonder if the difference between these terms reflect differences in
historical experiences of the communites. I wonder if the notion of idenity
is a Western middle-class phenomenon emerging in 50s associated with middle
class style of life (based on the ideology of having choices and being in
control). I have read several studies from my friend Bill Penuel where
African-American teenagers from poor neighborhood reject the notion of
identity,
…at YOUTHPOWER / they know me because I’m YOUTH/ I’m a YOUTH/
they want to get a YOUTH perspective/
…the only reason I FELT they felt/ they knew ROBERT/ because Robert was a
YOUTH/
they want to get a OBJECTIVE from a youth/
that’s how they PUT me in that position/
that’s how they KNOW me/…
how do I say it/ you know/
um SIGNIFY with me whatever/ what HAVE you/
but when IN the Hill/ it’s just like I’m ROBERT/
I'm not Robert from the HILL/
I'm not Robert from SANDY Ave/
I'm not Robert from the COMMUNITY Center/
I'm not Robert who's EIGHTEEN years old/
I'm ROBERT/ and that's how they KNOW me/
The slogan written on a T-shirt worn by a young African American woman: "The
identity I wear the best is my first and last identity: human being."
These all sounds so Russian!
What do you think?
Eugene
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sazonova [mailto:sazon@kursknet.ru]
> Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2000 11:25 PM
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: Re: Tutchev in English
>
>
>
> Hi, Rachel,
>
> Thank you very much for mentioning Antonio Damasio whose books make really
> a very interesting reading. I also haven't read his last one, but I read
> many refferences to it and they are very contrudictory. his understanding
> of many things is close to mine and I'm looking forward to read his new
> book.
> I don't think that Americans have no "dusha", but I agree that they have a
> different "sense of self". And I think everybody has a peculiar sence of
> self to some extend, only cultural differences make this differencies much
> deeper.
> Anna Wierzbicka in her article gives a linguistic semantic analisys of
> those notions and she refers much to literature and high poetry. This is
> only one side of the moon. And the back side is what psycholinguists would
> study as an individual meaning of the word/ here dusha will be paralleled
> with character, personality and in some contexts will nave even negative
> implications: in real life situations a man is supposed to have no dusha
> when he is at work ( in the meaning that one should be deprived of
> emotions) and etc.
> Funny enough that Mike's wife calls Russian thongs she is displeased with.
>
> Tatiana
>
>
> ----------
> Îò: Rachel Heckert <heckertkrs@juno.com>
> Êîìó: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Òåìà: Re: Tutchev in English
> Äàòà: 2 ìàðòà 2000 ã. 6:32
>
> Tatiana,
>
> You are absolutely right about "dusha - soul" (Russian) and "mind"
> (English) not being the same thing. Anna Wierzbicka wrote a very
> revealing piece about how our ideas about "person" are socially
> constructed, and points out that the Anglo-American idea of "mind" is not
> only peculiar to English-speakers, but is basically a development of the
> last two centuries. (She also talks about French "ame" and German "seele
> (mistranslation of which she says has created an inaccurate idea of what
> Freud was really saying).
>
> She also quotes extensively the Russian immigrant poet Tsvetayeva, and
> particularly relevant here: "There are things which cannot be thought in
> another language." (Being bilingual/cultural myself, I can give my own
> anecdotal evidence that this is true.)
>
> "The original article is in "American Anthropologist" vol. 91-1989 and
> she later expnanded it into a book chapter in "Semantics, Culture and
> Cognition" (Oxford, 1992) which examines various concepts in European
> languages, how they differ, and the hazards posed by translating
> directly.
>
> One of the less complimentary things I have heard about Americans from
> Russian friends is the puzzled (and sometimes dismissive) statement that
> "They have no dusha" - i.e. Americans have a very different "sense of
> self" than other nationalities. Another interesting phenomenon - to me,
> anyway - is the whole "the brain is a computer" business, which is based
> on the idea that being human is a matter of ratiocination and
> logic-chopping, divorced from emotion and volition. Russian (and classic
> Hebrew/Yiddish usage) has a separate term for this activity of the human
> mind.
> An interesting take on this from a neuropsychologist is Antonio Damasio's
> "Descartes' Error" which examines the hypothesis that emotion is
> necessary for even reasoning to function. (He just published another
> book, which I haven't read yet, but I have it from him via e-mail that
> it's an extension of the earlier one).
>
> Comments from Eugene, Tatiana, other Russian-speakers?
>
> Rachel Heckert
>
> BTW Will you guys please quit flaming each other? I'm just catching up
> after several days away, and the last round of posts has left me
> wondering just what's gotten into everybody.
>
> On Wed, 1 Mar 2000 09:30:47 +0300 "sazonova" <sazon@kursknet.ru> writes:
> > Mike, you are absolutly wright. And its not a coincidence.
> > In my translation I ment "soul' first of all and the word "mind" was
> > introduced specially for xmca-readers.
> > And now I'm struggling with the translation of the expression "body
> > - mind
> > problem" (I want to make a reveiw in my book) which somehow
> > corresponds to
> > what is known in Russian philosophical tradition as the problem of
> > body and
> > soul. When I say "somehow correspods" because English word "mind" is
> > not
> > the same as Russian word "soul". And I recall the XMCA discussion on
> > the
> > differences between Westen and Easten tradition in science.
> > Tatiana
> >
> > ----------
> > > Îò: Mike Cole <mcole@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > Êîìó: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > Òåìà: Tutchev in English
> > > Äàòà: 1 ìàðòà 2000 ã. 3:37
> > >
> > >
> > > Look at the title of this talk! I had just written Eugene about the
> > > problems of translation from russian-english where the word, soul,
> > > is a fine example. And then this appeared on the screen!
> > > mike
> > >
> > > >GARY T. MARX
> > > >Emeritus Professor
> > > >Massachusetts Institute of Technology
> > > >"Windows into the Soul: Surveillance and Society
> > > >in an Age of High Technology"
> > >
> > > sure, its a coincidence.
> > > mike
> >
>
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