RE: failures

Eugene Matusov (ematusov who-is-at udel.edu)
Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:43:02 -0400

Hi Genevieve and everybody--

I highly value Delpit's writings. I think her critique of tacit cultural
biases of some constructivist forms of instructional organization of the
classroom is absolutely superb. Her analysis of mismatches of traditional
(and some innovative) school and African American cultures is very
interesting and important. I do not want to dismiss scholars like Delpit
simply because I disagree with their equity position. However, as you nicely
pointed out,

>she started from the
> instructional "dilemmas" of "a progressive Black
> educator," dilemmas created by the very clash of
> systems commented on by others on this list.

In other words, she tries to work within the existing system accepting its
values and goals. She and other educators belonging to this group of
thought want to increase the size of black middle class. I wholeheartedly
support this goal. However, for me it is not enough. They are my allies and
I can learn a lot from them.

As to your example of "failing" students, I know that we all have very
different institutional constraints and pressures. Students, being raised
in traditional educational institutions, are often part of these constraints
themselves as well as our own educational background as instructors.

There is a good question what is "failing" means. Here are my 20 cents in
defining it. Students' losing interest in the subject due to teaching is
one of them. Blocking students' participation in socially valuable practice
is another. Not every pain that we, as instructors, may cause in our
students is failure or even bad thing (a medical analogy is obvious).
However, there is a thin line between causing pain in students for their own
good, which sometime can be necessary, and rationalizing your own conformity
to the system and helplessness.

There are some educational "successes" that I personally do not want to
achieve. For example, in the last spring semester, I managed to make all my
students come to class almost 100%, do all their assignments, and do their
final projects at the level I never saw before. However, talking with my
former students and reading xmca exchanges (especially Jay's position on
relationship between the teacher and student in our discussion of Daly's
firing) made me realize that these "successes" were done through rather
skillful exploitation of the students' worries about their grades. Again, I
see the problem not in using extrinsic motivation but in that for many of my
students, they have never transcended this extrinsic motivation. What many
of them authentically learned in my class was how to survive under my
"innovative" regime (on the periphery of this learning, they might learn
some other things, maybe more valuable, but, in my view, this is not a good
justification). For me, using extrinsic motivation in education is
justifiable only when students find intrinsic motivation in their initially
forced participation in the activity. Or, at least, it should be the goal
when extrinsic motivation is used. I think my "successes" were a result of
wrong goals (100% attendance, 100% assignments, passing my criteria of
quality work in the students' final projects).

What do you think?

Eugene

> -----Original Message-----
> From: genevieve patthey-chavez [mailto:ggpcinla@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Monday, September 27, 1999 8:12 PM
> To: xmca
> Subject: failures
>
>
>
> Eugene, have your read _Other People's Children_? I
> think highly of it. As a matter of fact, along with
> Sternglass' _Time to Know Them_ and Valdez's _Con
> Respeto_, it's a book I would highly recommend to
> instructors working in Central Los Angeles and related
> communities. I disagree with your interpretation of
> some of Delpit's ideas, rather strongly. I would not
> say that Delpit is primarily interested in equity at
> the expense of other goals. In the piece that started
> the whole firestorm, she started from the
> instructional "dilemmas" of "a progressive Black
> educator," dilemmas created by the very clash of
> systems commented on by others on this list. The
> choice of the word 'dilemma' keys the basic double
> binds so many of us find ourselves in when we start to
> work with central city people.
>
> When I started to work at Los Angeles City College ten
> years ago, the English Department had devised what I
> felt an absolutely ingenious system of parallel
> 'remedial' courses. Most of our students have spent
> very little time with academic English, so one
> semester of academic 'remediation' doesn't do a whole
> lot for them. We used to be able to recommend a
> parallel course for students who, in a sense, had kept
> up their side of our bargain, come to class, done the
> work, written the papers, and yet still were
> struggling with 'college' English. At the time, I
> thought, 'how wonderful! I don't have to fail good
> students.' Essentially, the department had carved out
> a kind of 'instructional space' for developmental
> students that broke with the rigid 'Step A goes to
> Semester 1, Step B goes to Semester 2 and if you can't
> follow you fail' flow of student bodies in the writing
> curriculum. Basically, this was a form of retention.
> Then, about 3 or 4 semesters into the experience, the
> Chancellor's Office told us to shape up and cut out
> all the parallel courses. We were being very bad boys
> & girls for keeping qualified students back, and a
> student who passes a particular level is by definition
> qualified to tackle the next.
>
> Now my choices once again have narrowed. I have
> little to offer students who need time & practice
> beyond one-on-one talks where I try to tell them
> something akin to, 'Here's how you write. Here's what
> you're supposed to write like the next level up. What
> do you think? Are you ready?' I'm a big believer in
> people making informed decisions. Now, I find that it
> is not at all easy to be honest when one is the bearer
> of bad news. And I remember rather vividly one
> student in particular, who told me, 'Man, I almost
> dropped your course after you talked to me! I got so
> depressed!'
>
> Most of the time, I respect the decisions indicated to
> me by my students. In Spring 99, though, I went
> against that philosophy and failed a number of
> students who had indicated they wanted to go on. Much
> to my surprise, four of them showed up on my doorstep
> this semester. I know I won't fail them a second
> time. I don't think I could stand to be around myself
> if I did. But there are so many other ways in which I
> can and do fail them. I never have enough time for
> them. I never give them enough practice. I never
> give them enough feedback. I let the general 'sink or
> swim' ed philosophy of the place solve far too many of
> my dilemmas for me ...
>
> Genevieve
>
>
>
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