At 09:59 PM 19/09/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi Judy and Victoria--
> I had written a piece ... with Jim that was a parallel to the
>article ... in Ed Psych on identity formation and addressivity
>for the first issue of Culture and Psychology ...
>The full reference is:
>Penuel, W.R., & Wertsch, J.V. (1995). Dynamics of negation in the identity
>politics of cultural Other and cultural self. Culture and
> Psychology, 1, 343-359.
thanks Bill. In addition, my most recent mail on XMCA was written after
your's appear.
With regard to the paper you've mentioned above, I've read that quite some
time ago, I'll go and dig into my files again and check it out. thanks
And judy, thanks for the reminder : )
best
Victoria
>Bill
>
>At 05:28 PM 09/19/1999 +0000, you wrote:
>>Hi, Victoria - Like everyone else I've known, I like very much to discuss my
>>own work :)
>>
>>You wrote:
>>>>"Affect as a sign og mimesis at work" ... I am wondering would you consider
>>>>negative affect as also sign of mimesis at work, such as to the effect of
>>>>affecting non participants among the "girls" on XMCA.
>>
>>Yes, I think transference is a mimetic function, but then, to be honest, I
>>don't know what I'm talking about. (I talk about it because I want to think
>>about it but I need time that I don't have to do that)
>>
>>You also wrote:
>>
>>>I
>>>>thought that I started this conversation to discuss about affect and
>>identity on
>>>>XMCA, but it seems that we've strayed ...
>>
>>I strayed. Did Bill Penuel recommend any readings in backchannel to you?
>>Bill, can you post any references you might have for Victoria on the list?
>>-- thank you.
>>
>>Judith
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Firstly, let me introduce myself (to you, Judy, again). We met at the
>>recent AERA
>>>in Montreal, where I attended your presentation and also requested for a
>>copy of
>>>your paper. I've also recently received your paper via "snail-mail". Thanks
>>>heaps! I'ld would like to discuss it further with you later, if it's okay
>with
>>>you?.
>>>
>>>I've been working on the topic of A CHAT Perspective of Identity
>Construction
>>>(IC) (especially within the contexts of beyond schooling environments)
>>since late
>>>1996. Back then (in '96/97), I was still toying with the idea of a CHAT
>>>perspective to SRL (self-regulated learning) and motivation and even wrote
>>>something about it, though at the time, none of my colleagues at my faculty
>>have
>>>articulated this notion or shown any interest (XMCA was unknown to me at
>>the time
>>>too!). But reading about Lave and Wenger, and subsequently, Mike's book (on
>>>Cultural Psychology), and others as well, I've shifted my interest to
>identity,
>>>especially within religious COP. Nevertheless, I'm certain that the
>relations
>>>between SRL and IC is mediated/motivation by interest (or the lack of it? -
>>>somewhat mentioned in Wenger's book, "COP: Learning, meaning and
>identities.).
>>>
>>>Judy Diamondstone wrote:
>>>
>>>> Victoria, Since this question still preoccupies me, it was interesting to
>>>> see Bill's response to you that quoted me -- and to see my own
>rehashing of
>>>> Ann Freadman's text about -- well, about rehashing texts, in some sense...
>>>
>>>Perhaps, the "data-rich" description of Ann's text, as mentioned by Bill,
>and
>>>you, serves to further illuminate Bakhtin's novel articulation about the
>>problem
>>>of speech genres. In some sense, even our "conversation" highlights the
>>problems.
>>>Rehearsing texts in written forms, versus verbal utterances, and
>subsequently
>>>appropriating speech, are almost like living in two/more different planets.
>>If I
>>>may suggest, one may expect scholarly discussions on XMCA to have a somewhat
>>>informal personality. This is so only to the extent when conversing on
>>relatively
>>>un-academically inclined topics (such as fishing and blah). But the moment
>>>academia is introduced into the conversation/multilogues, it transforms the
>>>interactions into a dense exchanged of jargons, thereby similarly
>transforming
>
>>>the genre(s) of speech, as is evident even at this instant. Nonetheless,
>there
>>>are both very explicit and as well as "un-written" rules on XMCA (eg
>using AT
>>>perspective). For example, the topic of fishing is not considered XMCA
>>interest,
>>>not unless if it were something like "A Study of Self Regulation in Fishing
>>>Techniques among Novice Fishermans". Any response???
>>>
>>>
>>>> Does identification necessitate or presuppose affect? Why is it that in
>the
>>>> x-list practices the pattern of participation remains stubbornly resistant
>>>> to any redistribution of KINDS of participants? How come more girls don't
>>>> play more often in the multilogues?
>>>
>>>In playing out the various genres of speech, this seems to be also
>reflected in
>>>the "demography" of participants, Judy. Why not more "girls"? Perhaps,
>"gals"
>>>like to converse, more often than not, in persons and privacy than in public
>>>arena such as XMCA. This is also not discounting the fact that there are
>many
>>>(and I emphasise, TOO MANY) silent observers/participants ... In
>articulating
>>>this, I could stand accused of gender biasness, so, I'll claim that this is
>>>usually the practice among my female colleagues and peers. Even I am
>>"guilty" of
>>>this, "watching" XMCA as a peripheral participant for almost a year now. So,
>>>Judy, would one more "girl" participant increase your motivation to press
>on in
>>>these multilogues?
>>>
>>>> I think of affect as a sign of mimesis at work, and we tend to treat
>mimesis
>>>> as the primitive precondition for rational communication/ multilogue,
>rather
>>>> than as the intertwined and necessary twin of whatever we actually say. So
>>>> in Eva's elegant modelling of the discussion list, the activity system
>as a
>>>> whole got analyzed into several separate, cascading systems -- while that
>>>> picture is elucidating, it's also as Nate and others have pointed out
>>>> problematic.
>>>
>>
>>>
>>>> Some thoughts before they're even half-baked: IF we can assume that
>mimesis
>>>> is at work in any communicative act -- both precondition for AND
>>>> simultaneous operant in whatever gets talked about (the dynamically
>>>> unfolding multilogue) THEN perhaps it may be the "missing part" (Luiz
>>>> Ernesto Merkle) of the ecosocial system that drives the dynamically
>>>> unfolding multi-logue. That which is missed/missing is a function of
>>>> mimesis, the unrecognizable twin of whatever issues-focused talk we do --
>>>> our search for MORE understanding than we already "have".... for the ever
>>>> elusive completion.
>>>>
>>>> Things get pretty murky here for the analyst :)
>>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>>Before responding to this further, let me just admit that it's way past
>midnite
>>>for me here (and after marking a bunch of student's papers on Attribution
>>>Theory), so, my thoughts are showing signs of clouding. I'm also thinking
>now
>>>that I'm missing the point that I'm responding to you (nb: Bakhtin
>claimed that
>>>comprehensible, articulated utterance elicit no response). Hence, my
>response.
>>>
>>>And Mike said something like ...
>>>"Victoria--
>>> You ask:
>>> Does this mean that
>
>>>identification necessitate affect, such as positive motivation and personal
>>>interest bordering even fun and amusement, thus crossing into comfortable
>>>zone. The consequence is a postive identity within such community of
>>>practice?
>>>
>>>I am not sure that positive motivatin and interest bordering on fun
>>>and amusement have positive identity in a COP as a necessary consequence,
>>>but they sure do help.
>>>mike"
>>>
>>>So, mike, would you consider the above about affect and ID in COP as both
>overt
>>>process and consequence in 5th D?
>>>
>>>Thanks for your responses, folks.
>>>
>>>Victoria
>>>
>>>
>>>> Judith
>>>>
>>>> Judith Diamondstone (732) 932-7496 Ext. 352
>>>> Graduate School of Education
>>>> Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey
>>>> 10 Seminary Place
>>>> New Brunswick, NJ 08901-1183Victoria wrote:
>>>
>>>> there have been in the past a number of mails bordering on
>>>> >informality and on friendly self disclosure, thus crossing into more
>>>> >personal genre of speech and conjuring an image of a friendly
>community and
>>>> >"comfortable zone" of interaction. It brings to mind of Bakhtin's
>discussion
>>>> >on "The problem of speech genres", where he claimed, "An absolutely
>>>> >understood and completed sentence, if it is a sentence and not an
>utterance
>>>> >comprised of one sentence, cannot evoke a responsive reaction: it is
>>>> >comprehensible, but it is still not all."
>>>> >
>>>> >In articulating this, I am suggesting that perhaps, my identity as a
>>>> >observer (passive/inactive etc) participant in XMCA in the past (up till
>>>> >now) has only been that of a somewhat disengaged member, watching the
>>>> >"actions/interactions". This has been the case, in my short experience in
>>>> >XMCA, when reading most mails that were "comprehensible, ... complete".
>>>> >
>>>> >But, in noticing mails that borders on the affect, I'm almost ready to
>jump
>>>> >in response.... The same response is conjured too in
>>>> >reading mails which raised more questions rather than those with complete
>>>> >logically discussions.
>>>> >
>>>> >Relating this to identity and community of practice. Does this mean that
>>>> >identification necessitate affect (?)
>>>Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
>>> name="v.yew.vcf"
>>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>>Content-Description: Card for Victoria Yew
>>>Content-Disposition: attachment;
>>> filename="v.yew.vcf"
>>>
>>>Attachment Converted: C:\MYDOCU~1\ATTACH~1\vyew2.vcf
>>>
>>
>>
>>Judith Diamondstone (732) 932-7496 Ext. 352
>>Graduate School of Education
>>Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey
>>10 Seminary Place
>>New Brunswick, NJ 08901-1183
>>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Bill Penuel, Ph.D.
>Research Social Scientist
>SRI International
>333 Ravenswood Avenue, Mailstop BS116
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>fax 650-869-5001
>email: bpenuel who-is-at unix.sri.com
>
>Check out our website at
>
>www.sri.com/policy/ctl
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
Victoria Yew
Doctoral Candidate
School of Educational Psychology, Literacies & Learning
Faculty of Education (A35)
University of Sydney
NSW 2006
AUSTRALIA
Telephone : (02) 9351 6326/ International +61 2 9351 6326
Fax : (02) 9351 2606 / International +61 2 9351 2606
E-mail : v.yew who-is-at edfac.usyd.edu.au