Regarding the U.S. - other English speaking countries contrast, insofar as
it is real, I agree w/ Sylvia that real & perceived power helps explain the
cavalier, 'do what I want' attitude (the giant's footstep). Decentralization
of school governance may be part of the picture too -- feeding into/fed by
that myth of the individual (person/district/state)... I suppose we in the
belly of the beast just have to sort out the costs/benefits of being born of
the bully.=20
Judy
At 05:28 AM 7/26/99 -0200, you wrote:
>Yes,
>
>I think I can understand what are u talking about... although I had=20
>never been in US.
>
>American culture, like a giant footstep, really scares all ants' work=20
>and life...=20
>
>Ricardo.
>Judy Diamondstone wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi, Riccardo. Thanks for the response. Yes, Vygotsky certainly emphasized
>> the dialectic between 'everyday' and 'scientific' -- the distinction=
between
>> kinds of concepts blurs right at the point where we can talk about
>> systematicity -- once we must rise to the concrete to "really"=
understand.
>>=20
>> However, I found Nate's comment interesting, that "<<with Russian=
students
>> the social context was different (more rigid) and those concepts did not
>> occur as everyday concepts">> and I was reaching, in my response to Nate,
>> for a way to describe what I perceive to be a characteristic of (many)=
U.S.
>> intellectuals as opposed to those in other English-speaking countries --=
a
>> kind of bricolage, a cavalier way with methods & theories (yeah, okay, I=
am
>> describing myself, but the same could be said of others on this list and=
is
>> less likely to pertain to academic writing from, say, Australia or=
Germany
>> -- the ancestor to English-speaking us. That's how it seems to me, anyway
>>=20
>> I'm thinking of that little boy who used the geometric object as a scheme
>> for his drawing in a very unexpected way. Teachers of course deal with=
this
>> kind of thing all the time, but there seems to be more permission for it=
in
>> the U.S., even enouragement, either because of the romance we have with=
the
>> idea of the individual, or because of a long history of cross pollination=
of
>> multiple communities -- is "cross pollination" of different sociocultural
>> groups analogous to "standing on the shoulders of giants"? i.e.,=
immersing
>> oneself in the sensemaking orientation of others through their texts...
>>=20
>> idly speculating,
>> Judy
>>=20
>> "what is done by what is called myself is, I feel, done by something=
greater
>> than myself in me" -- James Clerk Maxwell
>>=20
>> At 08:06 PM 7/25/99 -0200, you wrote:
>> >Mrs. Diamondstone,
>> >
>> >Forgive-me if I intromiss myself in your conversation with...
>> >(Nate?)
>> >But, I'm very interested in this issue.
>> >
>> >Judy Diamondstone wrote:>
>> >> If Nate's memory serves & U.S. kids' understandings were more=
"everyday"
>> in their formation while the Russians' concepts more
>> >"scientific" & "rigid" that suggests that flexibility is a function of
>> >pre-scientific (in V's terms) concepts
>> >
>> >First,I understand that concepts formation, as in americans as in
>> >russians persons, is a process in which concrete (everyday) and abstract
>> >(scientific or social) concepts interact, dialetically.
>> >
>> >Second, that in Vygotsky's time there was not something like a
>> >prototipic and a theoric conception of concepts. So, although he had
>> >approached concepts understanding in a classical conception way, there
>> >are many interesting passages in his texts that point to a more flexible
>> >way of understanding them (paticularly when he refers to the difference
>> >between meaning and sense of words, to the coletive construction of
>> >meaning within a specific context)
>> >
>> >i.e., understandings that are more embedded in one's "own" sense-making
>> >are more available for use in more different settings and ways. Does
>> >that jibe with others' understanding of "flexibility" ? (I think it
>> >challenges the cognitive psychologists' view, no? - i.e., where
>> >"flexibility" is described in terms of functioning within a given
>> >conceptual system/ theory)
>> >
>> >Third, the 'double stimulation', as I know, had been used to observ
>> >hipotetic abstract concepts like "bik", "lag" - names
>> >arbitrarially attached to solid geometric group of figures. And it
>> >indeed was very helpfull to demostrate how since a "sincretic thinnking"
>> >children goes to "thinking in complex" and, finally, reach "conceptual
>> >or categorial thinking", and to point the main role of words in thinking
>> >process, and that a word meaning develops along ontog=EAnesis.
>> >
>> >To Vygotsky, I understand, social and everyday concepts were
>> >very interconnected one another: something like an up movement since the
>> >last ones and a down movement from the first.
>> >
>> >But, in fact, everyday concepts have a definitivelly concrete and
>> >touchible dimension on contrary to social ones.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> >From memory, one of the comparative studies was
>> >> >between U.S. and Russian students with his conclusion being many of=
the
>> >> >concepts occurred in U.S kids more in the lines of everyday concepts,
while
>> >> >with Russian students the social context was different (more rigid)=
and
>> >> >those concepts did not occur as everyday concepts.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >I am reminded of a story Gary Price told me when he spent a day in
Venger's
>> >> >laboratory school. There was one little boy who was looking so=
carefully
>> >> >at a scheme of a geometric object to complete his drawing. Every few
>> >> >minutes he would look very carefully at the scheme and continue his=
work.
>> >> >Venger proudly mentioned how well the boy was using the scheme (sign)=
to
>> >> >mediate his own work. Well, the funny thing is that the boy had made
>> >> >something entirely different and it did not look like the scheme at=
all.
>> >> >The scheme was definately mediating the boys drawing, but not the way
>> >> >Venger intended.
>> >> >
>> >> >Nate
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >----- Original Message -----
>> >> >From: Bill Barowy <wbarowy who-is-at mail.lesley.edu>
>> >> >To: <xmca who-is-at weber.ucsd.edu>
>> >> >Sent: Friday, July 23, 1999 8:44 PM
>> >> >Subject: double stimulation?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Folks,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Can you suggest any references for recent studies that have used=
the
>> >> >method of "double stimulation" (LSV, Thought and Language) to study
concept
>> >> >formation? I am especially interested in a comparative study, that
opposed
>> >> >this method to an other.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Thanks in advance,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Bill Barowy, Associate Professor
>> >> >> Technology in Education
>> >> >> Lesley College, 31 Everett Street, Cambridge, MA 02138-2790
>> >> >> Phone: 617-349-8168 / Fax: 617-349-8169
>> >> >> http://www.lesley.edu/faculty/wbarowy/Barowy.html
>> >> >> _______________________
>> >> >> "One of life's quiet excitements is to stand somewhat apart from
yourself
>> >> >> and watch yourself softly become the author of something=
beautiful."
>> >> >> [Norman Maclean in "A river runs through it."]
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Judith Diamondstone (732) 932-7496 Ext. 352
>> >> Graduate School of Education
>> >> Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey
>> >> 10 Seminary Place
>> >> New Brunswick, NJ 08901-1183
>> >>
>> >> Eternity is in love with the productions of time - Wm Blake
>> >
>> >
>>=20
>> Judith Diamondstone (732) 932-7496 Ext. 352
>> Graduate School of Education
>> Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey
>> 10 Seminary Place
>> New Brunswick, NJ 08901-1183
>>=20
>> Eternity is in love with the productions of time - Wm Blake
>
>
Judith Diamondstone (732) 932-7496 Ext. 352=09
Graduate School of Education
Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey
10 Seminary Place =09
New Brunswick, NJ 08901-1183
Eternity is in love with the productions of time - Wm Blake