Re: Expert and novice: Tales for 5th Dim

nate (schmolze who-is-at students.wisc.edu)
Tue, 1 Jun 1999 17:06:31 -0500

Point taken. I think we are talking about the same ideal, but maybe coming
from different social experiences in reference to education. Mine being
from a neo-person solo view of constructivism in which adult interaction is
seen as a taboo. I very much agree in reference to the dynamics and for me
there is always tension that ought to be an area of refleXtion.

Nate
----- Original Message -----
From: Eugene Matusov <ematusov who-is-at udel.edu>
To: <xmca who-is-at weber.ucsd.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 9:14 AM
Subject: RE: Expert and novice: Tales for 5th Dim

> Hi Nate--
>
> Sorry if I took your cite of the scripts out of the context you are
> intended. Like Kathie and Rachel I feel uncomfortable with the
> expert-novice dichotomy supported by some mainstream institutions.
>
> As to,
> > I saw
> > it as both adult and child assuming a responsibility for the particular
> > activity. The novice in contrast to me points to the responsibility
being
> > soley with the individual child.
>
> Sometimes, child assumes "full" (or better to say "great deal of")
> responsibility for the activity and there is nothing wrong with that.
I'm
> sorry for sounding silly but again it depends. Neither specific
statements
> about how to provide guidance nor specific actions of providing guidance
> taken by themselves separate more successful from less successful
student's
> guidance, in my view and from my observation. It is rather a dynamic
> activity complex/system that supported by the participants and
constraints
> create right conditions and sensitive guidance itself through negotiation
of
> meaning of the ongoing events.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Eugene
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nate [mailto:schmolze@students.wisc.edu]
> > Sent: Monday, May 31, 1999 4:57 PM
> > To: XMCA
> > Subject: Re: Expert and novice: Tales for 5th Dim
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Eugene Matusov <ematusov who-is-at UDel.Edu>
> > To: <xmca who-is-at weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Sent: Monday, May 31, 1999 11:42 AM
> > Subject: RE: Expert and novice: Tales for 5th Dim
> >
> > I understand where your going with your example, but it seems to me, my
> > interpretation, was the expert script was moving in that direction. I
saw
> > it as both adult and child assuming a responsibility for the particular
> > activity. The novice in contrast to me points to the responsibility
being
> > soley with the individual child. This may just be a matter of
> > interpretation, or something more I am not sure. I do have concerns
with
> > learning or the responsibility of learning being located solely in the
> > individual or group of children.
> >
> > Nate
> >
> > > Expert: Tend to anticipate when a child needs help before he asks
> > > > Novice: Will wait to be asked by the child to provide assistance
> > >
> > > I observed some seasoned students in our Le Red Magica project in
> > Delaware,
> > > when sensitive guidance meant to wait until a child asks for
> > help. I know
> > it
> > > is confusing but the most generalizing statement about how to help
kids
> > > involving in afterschool activities is "it depends." Mike Cole did a
> > good
> > > job elaborating on "it depends" statement but I have only his
> > video text.
> > >
> > > What do you think?
> > >
> > > Eugene
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: nate [mailto:schmolze@students.wisc.edu]
> > > > Sent: Sunday, May 30, 1999 9:44 PM
> > > > To: XMCA
> > > > Subject: Re: Expert and novice: Tales for 5th Dim
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Eugene Matusov <ematusov who-is-at UDel.Edu>
> > > > To: <xmca who-is-at weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > > Cc: Renee Hayes <rhayes who-is-at UDel.Edu>; Leda Echevers <ledita@UDel.Edu>;
> > Mark
> > > > Smith <mpsmith who-is-at cwv.net>; John St. Julien <stjulien@UDel.Edu>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, May 30, 1999 4:35 PM
> > > > Subject: Expert and novice: Tales for 5th Dim
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > In my experience and observations in the project, you can reverse
> > > > everything
> > > > > that Expert said there and it is still will be Expert's highly
> > valuable
> > > > > claims. I think that wisdom of expert (which I see as an
> > experienced
> > > > > novice) is to understand that statements make sense only in an
> > > > appropriate
> > > > > context which often has a dynamic character. When some novices
> > > > seek for a
> > > > > stable universal rule, many seasoned participants look for
> > priorities
> > > > that
> > > > > guide them in specific circumstances and themselves are dynamic,
> > shared,
> > > > > negotiable, and interpretative.
> > > > >
> > > > > What do you think?
> > > >
> > > > I am confused, isn't that what the expert/novice script is saying.
I
> > > > always read it against DAPism, which fills many of the novice's
> > > > roles. The
> > > > expert being decisions relating to a dynamic context and novices
> > applying
> > > > broad generalizations about learning and development.
> > > > >
> > > > > Eugene
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: nate [mailto:schmolze@students.wisc.edu]
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 8:00 PM
> > > > > > To: xmca who-is-at weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > Subject: Re: the calculus wars
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: Timothy Koschmann <tkoschmann who-is-at acm.org>
> > > > > > To: <xmca who-is-at weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 3:03 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: the calculus wars
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your perception of the PBL tutor/coach's role is accurate to
the
> > > > extent
> > > > > > > that faculty members when in this role are discouraged from
> > telling
> > > > what
> > > > > > > they know, but you should realize that there are
> > multiple faculty
> > > > roles
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > PBL. Once students have formulated a "learning issue"
(i.e.,
> > > > > > recognized
> > > > > > > that there is something that they need to know), they are
> > encouraged
> > > > to
> > > > > > > utilize faculty as resources along with reference works,
> > journals,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > Internet, and anything else they can think of. Tutor/coaches
do
> > > > > > facilitate
> > > > > > > inquiry and do model appropriate strategies for problem
solving,
> > but
> > > > an
> > > > > > > important part of the method is that at no point does the
> > > > tutor/coach
> > > > > > tell
> > > > > > > the students "This is something that you need to learn."
> > > > > > > ---Tim
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > I took a math math class awhile back that was very similar to
the
> > PBL
> > > > > > approach. I interpreted the Dean's style as playing mind
games.
> > My
> > > > > > experience in the School of Education is most students get very
> > > > resentful
> > > > > > at such a pedagogical style. It IMHO is based on an outdated
form
> > of
> > > > > > constructivism in which the teacher is simply unfolding
cognitive
> > > > > > structures inside the head. If we see our students as "humans"
> > > > > > it seems to
> > > > > > me it would go against either extreme. In this sense I would
> > > > go so far
> > > > to
> > > > > > argue such an approach is very inauthentic.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For example; if we are in a conversation on xcma, for example,
and
> > > > someone
> > > > > > has an inquiry we do not sit back and wonder how to set the
> > question
> > > > asker
> > > > > > on some sort of problem solving trajectory. In everyday
> > conversation
> > > > we
> > > > > > don't think that way. If I ask someone who has read a
> > mutual book a
> > > > > > question, I would become upset if their response was withheld
> > because
> > > > they
> > > > > > did not want to get in the way of my learning. For me, I see
both
> > > > extreme
> > > > > > forms of constructivism and teacher directed teaching as forms
of
> > > > control.
> > > > > > In teacher directed classrooms knowledge is only in the
teachers
> > head,
> > > > and
> > > > > > in constructivism its still in the teachers head but is
> > > > approached as a
> > > > > > mind game of the teacher guessing what is inside the head.
> > Everyday
> > > > > > conversations normally does not go to either extreme.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In a more Foucaultian framework such approaches of the
"students
> > need
> > > > to
> > > > > > learn" is seen as the use of power through decenterism.
> > My problem
> > > > with
> > > > > > PBL is not so much the practice in itself, but the ideology and
> > > > > > assumptions
> > > > > > about learning behind such an approach. It is actually
> > ideologically
> > > > very
> > > > > > congruent with Socrates. A belief that education is simply an
> > > > > > unfolding of
> > > > > > universal, innate cognitive abilities. Such an approach it
> > > > seems would
> > > > > > also convey a teacher as observer rather than a participant in
> > > > learning.
> > > > > > For me an good educational context is one where its difficult
to
> > > > > > distinguish what part of the activity is teacher centered or
> > student
> > > > > > centered.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Such an example is below with the differentiation of
> > > > novice/expert from
> > > > 5D
> > > > > > Clearinghouse.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Expert: Do not assume that a child has understood something he
or
> > she
> > > > has
> > > > > > read on the computer screen or in the Adventure Guide
> > > > > > Novice: Rely upon the computer or Adventure Guide to instruct
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Expert: See the task as a joint activity and will use words
like
> > > > > > "Why don't
> > > > > > we try this?"
> > > > > > Novice: See the task as being the primary responsibility of the
> > child
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Expert: Tend to anticipate when a child needs help before he
asks
> > > > > > Novice: Will wait to be asked by the child to provide
assistance
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.ced.appstate.edu/projects/5dClhse/tehome.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I see the example as a challenge to both teacher directed and
> > > > neo-student
> > > > > > centered environments.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nate
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>