Sorry if I took your cite of the scripts out of the context you are
intended. Like Kathie and Rachel I feel uncomfortable with the
expert-novice dichotomy supported by some mainstream institutions.
As to,
> I saw
> it as both adult and child assuming a responsibility for the particular
> activity. The novice in contrast to me points to the responsibility being
> soley with the individual child.
Sometimes, child assumes "full" (or better to say "great deal of")
responsibility for the activity and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm
sorry for sounding silly but again it depends. Neither specific statements
about how to provide guidance nor specific actions of providing guidance
taken by themselves separate more successful from less successful student's
guidance, in my view and from my observation. It is rather a dynamic
activity complex/system that supported by the participants and constraints
create right conditions and sensitive guidance itself through negotiation of
meaning of the ongoing events.
What do you think?
Eugene
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nate [mailto:schmolze@students.wisc.edu]
> Sent: Monday, May 31, 1999 4:57 PM
> To: XMCA
> Subject: Re: Expert and novice: Tales for 5th Dim
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Eugene Matusov <ematusov who-is-at UDel.Edu>
> To: <xmca who-is-at weber.ucsd.edu>
> Sent: Monday, May 31, 1999 11:42 AM
> Subject: RE: Expert and novice: Tales for 5th Dim
>
> I understand where your going with your example, but it seems to me, my
> interpretation, was the expert script was moving in that direction. I saw
> it as both adult and child assuming a responsibility for the particular
> activity. The novice in contrast to me points to the responsibility being
> soley with the individual child. This may just be a matter of
> interpretation, or something more I am not sure. I do have concerns with
> learning or the responsibility of learning being located solely in the
> individual or group of children.
>
> Nate
>
> > Expert: Tend to anticipate when a child needs help before he asks
> > > Novice: Will wait to be asked by the child to provide assistance
> >
> > I observed some seasoned students in our Le Red Magica project in
> Delaware,
> > when sensitive guidance meant to wait until a child asks for
> help. I know
> it
> > is confusing but the most generalizing statement about how to help kids
> > involving in afterschool activities is "it depends." Mike Cole did a
> good
> > job elaborating on "it depends" statement but I have only his
> video text.
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > Eugene
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: nate [mailto:schmolze@students.wisc.edu]
> > > Sent: Sunday, May 30, 1999 9:44 PM
> > > To: XMCA
> > > Subject: Re: Expert and novice: Tales for 5th Dim
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Eugene Matusov <ematusov who-is-at UDel.Edu>
> > > To: <xmca who-is-at weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > Cc: Renee Hayes <rhayes who-is-at UDel.Edu>; Leda Echevers <ledita@UDel.Edu>;
> Mark
> > > Smith <mpsmith who-is-at cwv.net>; John St. Julien <stjulien@UDel.Edu>
> > > Sent: Sunday, May 30, 1999 4:35 PM
> > > Subject: Expert and novice: Tales for 5th Dim
> > >
> > >
> > > > In my experience and observations in the project, you can reverse
> > > everything
> > > > that Expert said there and it is still will be Expert's highly
> valuable
> > > > claims. I think that wisdom of expert (which I see as an
> experienced
> > > > novice) is to understand that statements make sense only in an
> > > appropriate
> > > > context which often has a dynamic character. When some novices
> > > seek for a
> > > > stable universal rule, many seasoned participants look for
> priorities
> > > that
> > > > guide them in specific circumstances and themselves are dynamic,
> shared,
> > > > negotiable, and interpretative.
> > > >
> > > > What do you think?
> > >
> > > I am confused, isn't that what the expert/novice script is saying. I
> > > always read it against DAPism, which fills many of the novice's
> > > roles. The
> > > expert being decisions relating to a dynamic context and novices
> applying
> > > broad generalizations about learning and development.
> > > >
> > > > Eugene
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: nate [mailto:schmolze@students.wisc.edu]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 8:00 PM
> > > > > To: xmca who-is-at weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > Subject: Re: the calculus wars
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Timothy Koschmann <tkoschmann who-is-at acm.org>
> > > > > To: <xmca who-is-at weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 3:03 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: the calculus wars
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Your perception of the PBL tutor/coach's role is accurate to the
> > > extent
> > > > > > that faculty members when in this role are discouraged from
> telling
> > > what
> > > > > > they know, but you should realize that there are
> multiple faculty
> > > roles
> > > > > in
> > > > > > PBL. Once students have formulated a "learning issue" (i.e.,
> > > > > recognized
> > > > > > that there is something that they need to know), they are
> encouraged
> > > to
> > > > > > utilize faculty as resources along with reference works,
> journals,
> > > the
> > > > > > Internet, and anything else they can think of. Tutor/coaches do
> > > > > facilitate
> > > > > > inquiry and do model appropriate strategies for problem solving,
> but
> > > an
> > > > > > important part of the method is that at no point does the
> > > tutor/coach
> > > > > tell
> > > > > > the students "This is something that you need to learn."
> > > > > > ---Tim
> > > > > >
> > > > > I took a math math class awhile back that was very similar to the
> PBL
> > > > > approach. I interpreted the Dean's style as playing mind games.
> My
> > > > > experience in the School of Education is most students get very
> > > resentful
> > > > > at such a pedagogical style. It IMHO is based on an outdated form
> of
> > > > > constructivism in which the teacher is simply unfolding cognitive
> > > > > structures inside the head. If we see our students as "humans"
> > > > > it seems to
> > > > > me it would go against either extreme. In this sense I would
> > > go so far
> > > to
> > > > > argue such an approach is very inauthentic.
> > > > >
> > > > > For example; if we are in a conversation on xcma, for example, and
> > > someone
> > > > > has an inquiry we do not sit back and wonder how to set the
> question
> > > asker
> > > > > on some sort of problem solving trajectory. In everyday
> conversation
> > > we
> > > > > don't think that way. If I ask someone who has read a
> mutual book a
> > > > > question, I would become upset if their response was withheld
> because
> > > they
> > > > > did not want to get in the way of my learning. For me, I see both
> > > extreme
> > > > > forms of constructivism and teacher directed teaching as forms of
> > > control.
> > > > > In teacher directed classrooms knowledge is only in the teachers
> head,
> > > and
> > > > > in constructivism its still in the teachers head but is
> > > approached as a
> > > > > mind game of the teacher guessing what is inside the head.
> Everyday
> > > > > conversations normally does not go to either extreme.
> > > > >
> > > > > In a more Foucaultian framework such approaches of the "students
> need
> > > to
> > > > > learn" is seen as the use of power through decenterism.
> My problem
> > > with
> > > > > PBL is not so much the practice in itself, but the ideology and
> > > > > assumptions
> > > > > about learning behind such an approach. It is actually
> ideologically
> > > very
> > > > > congruent with Socrates. A belief that education is simply an
> > > > > unfolding of
> > > > > universal, innate cognitive abilities. Such an approach it
> > > seems would
> > > > > also convey a teacher as observer rather than a participant in
> > > learning.
> > > > > For me an good educational context is one where its difficult to
> > > > > distinguish what part of the activity is teacher centered or
> student
> > > > > centered.
> > > > >
> > > > > Such an example is below with the differentiation of
> > > novice/expert from
> > > 5D
> > > > > Clearinghouse.
> > > > >
> > > > > Expert: Do not assume that a child has understood something he or
> she
> > > has
> > > > > read on the computer screen or in the Adventure Guide
> > > > > Novice: Rely upon the computer or Adventure Guide to instruct
> > > > >
> > > > > Expert: See the task as a joint activity and will use words like
> > > > > "Why don't
> > > > > we try this?"
> > > > > Novice: See the task as being the primary responsibility of the
> child
> > > > >
> > > > > Expert: Tend to anticipate when a child needs help before he asks
> > > > > Novice: Will wait to be asked by the child to provide assistance
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.ced.appstate.edu/projects/5dClhse/tehome.html
> > > > >
> > > > > I see the example as a challenge to both teacher directed and
> > > neo-student
> > > > > centered environments.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nate
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>