I understand where your going with your example, but it seems to me, my
interpretation, was the expert script was moving in that direction. I saw
it as both adult and child assuming a responsibility for the particular
activity. The novice in contrast to me points to the responsibility being
soley with the individual child. This may just be a matter of
interpretation, or something more I am not sure. I do have concerns with
learning or the responsibility of learning being located solely in the
individual or group of children.
Nate
> Expert: Tend to anticipate when a child needs help before he asks
> > Novice: Will wait to be asked by the child to provide assistance
>
> I observed some seasoned students in our Le Red Magica project in
Delaware,
> when sensitive guidance meant to wait until a child asks for help. I know
it
> is confusing but the most generalizing statement about how to help kids
> involving in afterschool activities is "it depends." Mike Cole did a
good
> job elaborating on "it depends" statement but I have only his video text.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Eugene
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nate [mailto:schmolze@students.wisc.edu]
> > Sent: Sunday, May 30, 1999 9:44 PM
> > To: XMCA
> > Subject: Re: Expert and novice: Tales for 5th Dim
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Eugene Matusov <ematusov who-is-at UDel.Edu>
> > To: <xmca who-is-at weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Cc: Renee Hayes <rhayes who-is-at UDel.Edu>; Leda Echevers <ledita@UDel.Edu>;
Mark
> > Smith <mpsmith who-is-at cwv.net>; John St. Julien <stjulien@UDel.Edu>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 30, 1999 4:35 PM
> > Subject: Expert and novice: Tales for 5th Dim
> >
> >
> > > In my experience and observations in the project, you can reverse
> > everything
> > > that Expert said there and it is still will be Expert's highly
valuable
> > > claims. I think that wisdom of expert (which I see as an experienced
> > > novice) is to understand that statements make sense only in an
> > appropriate
> > > context which often has a dynamic character. When some novices
> > seek for a
> > > stable universal rule, many seasoned participants look for priorities
> > that
> > > guide them in specific circumstances and themselves are dynamic,
shared,
> > > negotiable, and interpretative.
> > >
> > > What do you think?
> >
> > I am confused, isn't that what the expert/novice script is saying. I
> > always read it against DAPism, which fills many of the novice's
> > roles. The
> > expert being decisions relating to a dynamic context and novices
applying
> > broad generalizations about learning and development.
> > >
> > > Eugene
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: nate [mailto:schmolze@students.wisc.edu]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 8:00 PM
> > > > To: xmca who-is-at weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > Subject: Re: the calculus wars
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Timothy Koschmann <tkoschmann who-is-at acm.org>
> > > > To: <xmca who-is-at weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 3:03 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: the calculus wars
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Your perception of the PBL tutor/coach's role is accurate to the
> > extent
> > > > > that faculty members when in this role are discouraged from
telling
> > what
> > > > > they know, but you should realize that there are multiple faculty
> > roles
> > > > in
> > > > > PBL. Once students have formulated a "learning issue" (i.e.,
> > > > recognized
> > > > > that there is something that they need to know), they are
encouraged
> > to
> > > > > utilize faculty as resources along with reference works,
journals,
> > the
> > > > > Internet, and anything else they can think of. Tutor/coaches do
> > > > facilitate
> > > > > inquiry and do model appropriate strategies for problem solving,
but
> > an
> > > > > important part of the method is that at no point does the
> > tutor/coach
> > > > tell
> > > > > the students "This is something that you need to learn."
> > > > > ---Tim
> > > > >
> > > > I took a math math class awhile back that was very similar to the
PBL
> > > > approach. I interpreted the Dean's style as playing mind games.
My
> > > > experience in the School of Education is most students get very
> > resentful
> > > > at such a pedagogical style. It IMHO is based on an outdated form
of
> > > > constructivism in which the teacher is simply unfolding cognitive
> > > > structures inside the head. If we see our students as "humans"
> > > > it seems to
> > > > me it would go against either extreme. In this sense I would
> > go so far
> > to
> > > > argue such an approach is very inauthentic.
> > > >
> > > > For example; if we are in a conversation on xcma, for example, and
> > someone
> > > > has an inquiry we do not sit back and wonder how to set the
question
> > asker
> > > > on some sort of problem solving trajectory. In everyday
conversation
> > we
> > > > don't think that way. If I ask someone who has read a mutual book a
> > > > question, I would become upset if their response was withheld
because
> > they
> > > > did not want to get in the way of my learning. For me, I see both
> > extreme
> > > > forms of constructivism and teacher directed teaching as forms of
> > control.
> > > > In teacher directed classrooms knowledge is only in the teachers
head,
> > and
> > > > in constructivism its still in the teachers head but is
> > approached as a
> > > > mind game of the teacher guessing what is inside the head.
Everyday
> > > > conversations normally does not go to either extreme.
> > > >
> > > > In a more Foucaultian framework such approaches of the "students
need
> > to
> > > > learn" is seen as the use of power through decenterism. My problem
> > with
> > > > PBL is not so much the practice in itself, but the ideology and
> > > > assumptions
> > > > about learning behind such an approach. It is actually
ideologically
> > very
> > > > congruent with Socrates. A belief that education is simply an
> > > > unfolding of
> > > > universal, innate cognitive abilities. Such an approach it
> > seems would
> > > > also convey a teacher as observer rather than a participant in
> > learning.
> > > > For me an good educational context is one where its difficult to
> > > > distinguish what part of the activity is teacher centered or
student
> > > > centered.
> > > >
> > > > Such an example is below with the differentiation of
> > novice/expert from
> > 5D
> > > > Clearinghouse.
> > > >
> > > > Expert: Do not assume that a child has understood something he or
she
> > has
> > > > read on the computer screen or in the Adventure Guide
> > > > Novice: Rely upon the computer or Adventure Guide to instruct
> > > >
> > > > Expert: See the task as a joint activity and will use words like
> > > > "Why don't
> > > > we try this?"
> > > > Novice: See the task as being the primary responsibility of the
child
> > > >
> > > > Expert: Tend to anticipate when a child needs help before he asks
> > > > Novice: Will wait to be asked by the child to provide assistance
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > http://www.ced.appstate.edu/projects/5dClhse/tehome.html
> > > >
> > > > I see the example as a challenge to both teacher directed and
> > neo-student
> > > > centered environments.
> > > >
> > > > Nate
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>