Philosophies of guidance and patterns of instructional discourse

Eugene Matusov (ematusov who-is-at cats.ucsc.edu)
Tue, 26 Dec 1995 13:49:21 -0800

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Hello everybody--

I'm a bit slow on responding to some messages and issues raised recently =
on the net. The discussion on a middle class instructional discourse =
IRE (Initiation-Response-Evaluation) seems to me to be over when I =
finally have an opportunity to contribute and ask for your feedback on =
the issue I'm currently thinking of.

My immediate reaction is on Eva's examples of the IRE instructional =
pattern used by her with her daughter in her home "reading lessons" (see =
attached original message below). However, I thought about these =
examples in the context of Gordon's paper presented by him at I =
Sociocultural Conference in Madrid in 1992. The title of the paper is =
"Re-evaluating the IRE sequence: A proposal for the articulation of =
theories of activity and discourse for the analysis of teaching and =
learning in the classroom" (Gordon, has this paper published =
somewhere?). Gordon noticed that different sociocultural authors either =
praise IRE sequence for its guiding collaborative power (e.g., Mercer, =
1992; Newman, Griffin, & Cole, 1989) or are critical to it for =
unilateral guidance (e.g., Heath, 1983; Lemke, 1990; Mehan, 1979). =
Gordon raised in the paper a very good question: are those author =
talking about the same phenomenon?

I far I can understand Gordon's answer (Gordon, please, correct me, if I =
am wrong), Gordon suggested that people indeed talk about the same =
phenomenon but focus on two different aspects. The authors who praise =
the IRE instructional discourse focus on reproductive aspect of guidance =
(i.e., reproduction of the culture) while the authors who are critical =
to the IRE sequence emphasize creative production of culture in =
guidance.

Here I want to entertain another possibility: what if the researchers =
are talking about different phenomena? What if the IRE discourse =
pattern can be used for different types of guidance?

Critics of the IRE sequence point at the following features of the =
unilateral guidance expressed in the IRE discourse: the teacher =
withholds information from the student and tests while providing =
guidance. Indeed, look at Eva's example,

<E: What's her name?
<J: Sylvia.
<E: Yes, the doll's name is Sylvia.

Of course, Eva had known the answer to the question when she asked her =
daughter. Moreover, her daughter probably also had known that her mom =
not seeking the information but testing her knowledge. It is probably =
safe to say that both participants learn not to be involved much in the =
primary activity (e.g., on reading) but on the secondary activity of =
testing and demonstrating the knowledge (Lave and Wenger, 1991, call the =
secondary activity as "parasitic practice"). Inquiry, motivation, goal, =
interest of the primary activity are not important for the teacher -- it =
is jut a tool to lead and test the knowledge especially when this type =
of guidance become dominant in school (unlike in home where I believe =
many types of guidance co-exist).

My point is that although the IRE sequence can nicely serve for the =
unilateral guidance described above, I argue that the IRE sequence can =
also serve other types of guidance and other types of discourse can =
serve for the purpose of the unilateral guidance. =20

Norris Minick (1993) titled "Teacher's directives: The social =
construction of 'literal meanings' and 'real words' in classroom =
discourse" (in S. Chaiklin & J. Lave (Eds.), Understanding practice: =
Perspectives on activity and context. Cambridge, MA: Cambridge =
University Press) pointed at another discourse form of unilateral =
guidance where information is withheld by the teacher from the student. =
He described a classroom lesson in which a elementary school teacher =
wanted to introduce the concept of mirror symmetry. She asked children =
to perform separated actions with their mirrors and geometric shapes. =
Through these manipulations with the mirrors, the children were not told =
what was the purpose of the manipulations, on what they should focus on =
this activity right now, and what the teacher what them to teach and =
why. In this situation, the teacher's motive is unavailable and =
non-negotiable for the students -- students' motive becomes limited to =
finding such actions that satisfy the teacher (through a "guessing =
game"). Here, the unilateral guidance was realized not through the IRE =
sequence but through "decontexualized" teacher's directives.

Barbara Rogoff, Nancy Bell, and I studying guidance and assistance in =
joint problem solving of children differing in collaborative schooling =
background found a collaborative form of guidance provided by a fourth =
grader to a third grader that was expressed in the IRE sequence. For =
example, in the card sorting problem (there were 18 pictures of =
household items, the children were asked to put cards that "go =
together"), a dyad from the collaborative school used "instruction =
embedded in collaboration" type of guidance. The fourth grader picked =
up two cards -- knife and bowl -- and suggested to the third grader to =
combine cards according to "kitchen stuff," while the third grader =
picked up the yellow hairdryer and yellow washing gloves and suggested =
organizing the cards by color. The fourth grader noticed the different =
potential strategies and said, "We can do it by kitchen, by color..." =
(Initiation) The third grader interrupted him, "...by size, by =
material..." (Response) The fourth grader ended, "yeah, we can do it in =
many ways. Let's try to find all of them!" (Evaluation) In this =
example, the children built on each other's ideas as they decided to =
find all possible systems of classification, and the fourth grader =
provided commentary that helped to guide the task definition. Note, =
that for providing this kind of guidance the fourth grader had not to =
know the solution of the task prior the guidance.

My global point is it may be more useful on philosophy of practice =
rather than on patterns of discourse to characterize types of practice. =
By "philosophy of practice," I mean participants' consideration of what =
involves in practice -- the unity of believes about, attitudes toward, =
perception of, goals of, skills of, and discourse patterns of the =
practice (see Rogoff, 1994, in MCA, 4, and Rogoff, Matusov, and White, =
1996, Models of learning in a community of learners. In D. R. Olson & N. =
Torrance (Eds.), Handbook of education and human development: New models =
of learning, teaching, and schooling. London: Basil Blackwell; for more =
discussion of philosophy of teaching and learning).

Happy New Year,

Eugene Matusov
University of California at Santa Cruz
----------
From: Eva Ekeblad[SMTP:eva.ekeblad who-is-at ped.gu.se]
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 1995 12:58 AM
To: xmca who-is-at weber.ucsd.edu
Subject: Re: Reading to children, sti

Hi Geoff

I think that the more "elaborative" sequences in my transcript may be =
those
that are initiated by a "comment" rather than a question -- I have not
really had any good categories for those sequences, they tend to be a =
bit
"messy".

Looking quickly at the questioning sequences: Of my 17 questions there =
are
7 "straight" IRE sequences (after which I for example continue reading).

like:

E: What's her name?
J: Sylvia.
E: Yes, the doll's name is Sylvia.

The E is mostly of the affirmative/ /"shaping repeat kind" -- sometimes
bordering on elaboration like below, where I put into words what my son
gestures:

E: What are they all doing here, building on the beach? ...
There's Red-beak...
J: And he's doing like thiiisss...
E: He's taken a long... stick.

In four sequences there is rather an IRIRE pattern. In one of these
sequences my daughter chimes in and confirms my E of my son's second R.
(She's learning some parenting, too...) In two IRE sequences and one of =
the
IRIRE (all involving looking for story characters in pictures) I =
continue
by pointing out another character (opening a free-for-all)

In one of the IRIR sequences my son gives an answer finding sevaeral
characters and then turning the question back on me, evaluating my =
response
by affirmative repeat (as "by the book")... and then there is some =
problem
solving going on -- how should that be classified:

E: And who's that, walking there?
J: Flora.
E: And do we find someone else?
J: I find Kaspar. And the tractor. Then I find Tedor. The russian =
dolls.
What more do we have?
E: There's somebody who's almost hidden.
J: Who is that?
E: Redbeak.
J: Yes, Redbeak.
E: But I never found the dancing-couples on this picture
although it says they also go to town.
J: ? Ye but, wat if it says, though they are...
there doesn't have to be pictures
E: Maybe... they are behind some house now...
J: Yes, maybe they are.

3 of the 6 questions "in the text" also form straight IRE:s. In a fourth
one both children chime in, affirming my elaborative E. In the last two
sequences the "question in the text" triggers off an "orgy of =
description"
of what happens in the picture, all of us pointing and exclaiming.

Well, I have to stop here... I wonder about the "liking" and "wanting",
however -- have a feeling I didn't focus much on that. Although =
connecting
to our own experiences is certainly an important part of the =
"commenting"
sections -- throwing worn out toys away, being seasick....

Eva
wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't fun
and educational

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